Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 31

Thread: kuoshu lei tai

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    I like the leitai for the following reasons:

    1. It limits running to a point,
    2. It teaches you how to corner your opponent,
    3. It is cheaper to build than a ring with ropes.

    I don't like current leitai or leitai rules for the following reasons:

    1. I think obtaining points by pushing someone off the platform is lame. Though causing them to run off should earn you a point.
    2. The leitais that I have seen are far too big. My students are forced to fight on a six foot square leitai. There is no choice but standing and fighting, dodging, or circling. Even ten foot platforms would reduce "running" time.
    3. More probability of injury from falling rather than fighting.

    The concept of fighting of a raised platform to enhance the danger of the competition is passe in our modern liberal, litigious societies.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    233
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I see it as an "inferior" method to Daidojuku.
    What is that?

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    888
    Quote Originally Posted by mooyingmantis View Post
    I like the leitai for the following reasons:

    1. It limits running to a point,
    2. It teaches you how to corner your opponent,
    3. It is cheaper to build than a ring with ropes.

    I don't like current leitai or leitai rules for the following reasons:

    1. I think obtaining points by pushing someone off the platform is lame. Though causing them to run off should earn you a point.
    2. The leitais that I have seen are far too big. My students are forced to fight on a six foot square leitai. There is no choice but standing and fighting, dodging, or circling. Even ten foot platforms would reduce "running" time.
    3. More probability of injury from falling rather than fighting.

    The concept of fighting of a raised platform to enhance the danger of the competition is passe in our modern liberal, litigious societies.
    Do you think if we apply this type of rule set but on a wrestling mat, would it have Lei Tai "Feel" to it? What if we were to get rid of the "Push Out" rule in favor of a smaller ring size such as a 8' - 10' ring and apply the no running out rule?

    ginosifu

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,716
    1) elevate the platform 4-6 inches. It doesn't have to be high enough to cause injury.

    2) Eliminate points for pushing, and make it so if you are kicked, punched, or thrown with a legitimate technique off the platform, that's it. You lose.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    1,693
    Been following this topic with some interest because I fought "leitai" last year and won and, yes, I made liberal use of the push-out rule and, also yes, I felt like it was kind of cheesy but if those are the rules and you notice the other guy is like 2 inches from the edge, you'd be a fool not to go ahead and push him out.

    OTOH....

    The arguments on this thread are kind of inconsistent. We all agree that winning for a lot of just shoving a guy back feels silly but has anyone looked at the internal assumptions on why we feel it's silly? No one has explicitly stated it but I assume the argument is that just shoving a guy back a couple feet doesn't really do any damage and should therefore not be awarded in a fight sport.

    Ok. Let's accept the premise that only techniques that could hypothetically hurt a guy get points.

    Then what do I do with these points here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    ...One of my guys had a chest injury for months after he fell off the Lei Tai onto his opponent's knee
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Patterson View Post

    I hear you about the injuries on the platform. One of my heavyweights broke his upper humerous as a result of a 340 lb. opponent falling on him as they went off together...
    So we somehow feel that simply pushing a guy out of the ring is an invalid technique because it does not represent "fighting" or "combat" and at the same time feel that we should do away with the platform because being pushed off it is dangerous?

    It's kind of interesting how leitai fights add support of the good old fashioned Taiji "push" as a valid technique. In a real fight, while there isn't typically a raised platform, there's certainly chairs and traffic and so on. Also, I don't really care about people trying to bullrush me off the stage or out of the ring. If that is an issue then you really need to work on your footwork. At least one of my "push outs" was a taiji throw I did as a counter to a bullrush.

  6. #21
    i think lei tai should be done bare knuckle with traditional music. thais do it. the way it is right now just bores me, id rather watch mma or sanda.
    Last edited by bawang; 10-16-2011 at 08:57 AM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    So we somehow feel that simply pushing a guy out of the ring is an invalid technique because it does not represent "fighting" or "combat" and at the same time feel that we should do away with the platform because being pushed off it is dangerous?

    It's kind of interesting how leitai fights add support of the good old fashioned Taiji "push" as a valid technique. In a real fight, while there isn't typically a raised platform, there's certainly chairs and traffic and so on. Also, I don't really care about people trying to bullrush me off the stage or out of the ring. If that is an issue then you really need to work on your footwork. At least one of my "push outs" was a taiji throw I did as a counter to a bullrush.
    Good point, Omar.

    The original rule long ago stated "ejected from the platform with a skillful technique" which definitely included a classic uproot or palm push if given with authority in a balanced and grounded execution. The referees tended to disallow points for what I call "bullrushing"... meaning grabbing and literally running the other combatant off the platform. Now it can be argued that the receiver of the "bullrush" should be able to execute a skillful redirection of that momentum and counter it with a throw for example.. and I would agree.

    The problem is that most cannot and, as a result, many are injured badly each year. So my issue always had to do with safety for the fighters. Did you know that one year they wanted to raise the platform yet another foot? I fought hard against it for the very same reason and it never came into being.

    In the old days, the "platform" was a few layers of tatami stacked together and held in place by a wooden frame. This is more to my liking as it preserves the necessity of moving laterally but takes away needless injury.

    Just my opinion.
    One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.

    MP 2007

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    i think lei tai should be done bare knuckle with traditional music. thais do it. the way it is right now just bores me, id rather watch mma or sanda.
    Well, I don't know about music.

    But I also much preferred the structure before the advent of all the safety gear. The headcage encourages unguarded flailing in many because the nose is no longer a point of concern.

    And even though the 4 oz. gloves are far less padding than many amateur structures use today and do allow for grabbing, I definitely preferred the full impact of the hand in the older structure.

    But, as I stated earlier, I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur contests. A pro structure would be nice in kuoshu so that some of these issues could be addressed effectively.
    One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.

    MP 2007

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Midgard
    Posts
    10,853
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    i think lei tai should be done bare knuckle with traditional music. thais do it. the way it is right now just bores me, id rather watch mma or sanda.
    I agree. Also, I think in lei tai for push out, this comes down to 'ring control' and keeping the center. If I found myself in a real fight on a raised platform, u can bet money I would try to push the guy off. So its actually realistic. That's why its a raised platform. If u lose by a simple push, it shows how much your opponent controlled you and the fight
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Patterson View Post
    Well, I don't know about music.

    But I also much preferred the structure before the advent of all the safety gear. The headcage encourages unguarded flailing in many because the nose is no longer a point of concern.

    And even though the 4 oz. gloves are far less padding than many amateur structures use today and do allow for grabbing, I definitely preferred the full impact of the hand in the older structure.

    But, as I stated earlier, I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur contests. A pro structure would be nice in kuoshu so that some of these issues could be addressed effectively.
    i think 4 oz glove is a must in the future of guoshu competitions. it gives you complete freedom to do what you want, there will be no excuses
    Last edited by bawang; 10-16-2011 at 02:32 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    1,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Patterson View Post
    Well, I don't know about music.

    But I also much preferred the structure before the advent of all the safety gear. The headcage encourages unguarded flailing in many because the nose is no longer a point of concern.

    And even though the 4 oz. gloves are far less padding than many amateur structures use today and do allow for grabbing, I definitely preferred the full impact of the hand in the older structure.

    But, as I stated earlier, I do understand the need for certain safety measures in amateur contests. A pro structure would be nice in kuoshu so that some of these issues could be addressed effectively.
    The safety argument is much stronger than the "just shoving a guy is cheesy" argument. On the one hand, I did feel silly for some of the push outs I did. OTOH, I was fairly proud of my self for being so acutely aware of where the border was. Also, the one I did was just a taped square on a mat so there was no safety issue. After thinking about it now I realize the raised platform causes 90% of the problems. With a flat ring or just a couple inches of platform, you also get rid of people falling on your when you both go out together. A lot less falling in general.

    We wore open faced TKD style foam head protectors which seems really appropriate to me for an amateur event. You could still get hit in the face and they didn't obscure my vision like the full head cages do.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    North Canton, OH
    Posts
    1,848
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    1) elevate the platform 4-6 inches. It doesn't have to be high enough to cause injury.

    2) Eliminate points for pushing, and make it so if you are kicked, punched, or thrown with a legitimate technique off the platform, that's it. You lose.
    This!

    Plus a smaller ring size as Gino suggested.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,436
    Quote Originally Posted by ginosifu View Post
    Do you think if we apply this type of rule set but on a wrestling mat, would it have Lei Tai "Feel" to it? What if we were to get rid of the "Push Out" rule in favor of a smaller ring size such as a 8' - 10' ring and apply the no running out rule?

    ginosifu
    For your tournament Gino I think this would be a good idea. Have a 10 x 10 or 12 x 12 ring, get rid of the push out rule however you could penalize for running or stalling during the fight, as well as penalize for bull charging someone out of the ring when they are getting beat by an opponent with superior technique.

    I personally feel this type of fighting should only be done in a boxing style ring, but that is because you don't have to worry about guys running so much and the action doesn't get stopped as much with going out of boundaries. But I also understand when having a tournament it is not always economically possible to have 3 oe 4 boxing rings.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    888
    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76 View Post
    For your tournament Gino I think this would be a good idea. Have a 10 x 10 or 12 x 12 ring, get rid of the push out rule however you could penalize for running or stalling during the fight, as well as penalize for bull charging someone out of the ring when they are getting beat by an opponent with superior technique.

    I personally feel this type of fighting should only be done in a boxing style ring, but that is because you don't have to worry about guys running so much and the action doesn't get stopped as much with going out of boundaries. But I also understand when having a tournament it is not always economically possible to have 3 oe 4 boxing rings.
    A lot of stuff is about cost and economics. Boxing rings are expensive, even wrestling mats are $5000-$6000 Grand for a whole set. However, the new puzzle mats are a bit more economical. A 10' x 10' ring would be 3 puzzle mats across (each puzzle mat are approximately 40" x 40") and 3 puzzle mats deep. Most likely we would do a 4 x 4 puzzle mat and have the outer mats for safety. But you are looking at about $18-20 per puzzle square (40" x 40") X 16 pieces = $320 per ring.

    Fighters don't care about what the promoters have to go thru to provide a place for them to fight but it is not easy to create a good tournament without going broke.

    ginosifu

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    888
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    1) elevate the platform 4-6 inches. It doesn't have to be high enough to cause injury.
    This is a good idea and cheap to build. Lay 2x4x8 or a 2x4x10 on the ground and create a square. A couple of 2x4's across the middle for support and put plywood on top. Then get puzzle mat squares to cover the top and there you have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    2) Eliminate points for pushing, and make it so if you are kicked, punched, or thrown with a legitimate technique off the platform, that's it. You lose.
    This would work as well. Eliminate the bull rush and only score points for valid punch kick and throw out of bounds. The only safety issue I would have is fighters that would fall on or near the corners of the would edges.

    ginosifu

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •