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Thread: Did Bruce Lee reach the level of Grandmaster?

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  1. #1
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    Did Bruce Lee reach the level of Grandmaster?


    Hi

    I'm new to these forums so please forgive me if I'm asking things that have been asked before.. I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether Bruce Lee achieved the level of Grandmaster? I know that he started out with Wing Chun under the great Yip Man, but did his skills surpass those of his teacher?

    I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee but my Grandmaster is always quite derogatory about Bruce Lee, saying things like he was one legged and that generally he wasn't as good as he was made out to be.. Despite this I still find myself admiring his abilities and the lengths he went to in order to achieve the level of physical fitness that he did. I find it hard to believe that anyone could have anything other than admiration for someone who was obviously incredibly driven and dedicated to his art.

    What are your thoughts on Bruce Lee? Am I buying into the whole mythology that surrounds him or was he as great as I and many others like me believe he was?

    Kevin

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    I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether Bruce Lee achieved the level of Grandmaster?
    Aside from the given "if his students are teaching their own, then he is grand master"........how does one reach a "GRAND MASTER" level? What determines whether you are or not?

    welcome to the forum.......
    Last edited by hskwarrior; 10-15-2011 at 09:47 AM.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply. That opens up another question to which I'd like to know the answer. How do you reach the level of Grandmaster? Is there a formal grading or is it like like you suggested? I've often wondered about that. In theory anybody could call themselves a Grandmaster I guess?
    Kevin

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    Technically, I'm a Grand Master because my grand students call me Sigung. If there is a grading for Grand Master its a new creation to grab up some outsider money. In my opinion, the real indication of GRAND MASTER is time and age as we never stop learning until death.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  5. #5
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    I've sort of been led to believe that to become a Grandmaster one must be adopted by a Chinese Master and then have the title effectively passed on to you..

    I'm so glad that I joined this forum, I think it is going to be most educational. I think it'll help me to cut through the bull and get to the truth about things.
    Kev

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    Just to say it, "Grandmaster" is a fairly new term adopted into the whole scene.
    It is derived from the whole verbiage of the filial system of pais (clans/families).

    Up until the 80's or so, there was no such thing. But the filial systems remained and then got combined with belt ranks, then on it went down the garden paths until we arrive at the term "grandmaster".

    Filial system uses:

    Founder - Jo si or si jo
    Grandfather/Teacher - si gung
    Teacher / Father - si fu
    Teacher/Mother (sifu's wife - si mo
    Teacher /older brother - si hing
    Teacher/ Older sister - si mei
    you - whatever your name is. lol

    there is also uncles and aunts and such and generally these filial styles didn't use belt rankings.
    But then, welcome to america and voila! Culture mix that some like and others consider taint. It can be for sure a bit of both.

    as for bruce, if you think he's a grandmaster and learn from what he wrote or one of his students or students, students, then he's your grandmaster...these days anyway. :-)
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    Aside from the given "if his students are teaching their own, then he is grand master"........how does one reach a "GRAND MASTER" level? What determines whether you are or not?

    welcome to the forum.......
    You have to be old to be a GrandMaster. Old and deadly. Bruce, like Jimi died young.

  8. #8
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    Hey KJW Google an online PDF book titled 'Unsettled Matters' for additional insight into Bruce Lee's life. I'm on my phone or I would link. Its a good read, any Bruce Lee fan should read it for perspective.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  9. #9

    Did Bruce Lee reach the level of Grandmaster ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KJW View Post

    Hi

    I'm new to these forums so please forgive me if I'm asking things that have been asked before.. I was just wondering whether anyone knew whether Bruce Lee achieved the level of Grandmaster? I know that he started out with Wing Chun under the great Yip Man, but did his skills surpass those of his teacher?

    I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee but my Grandmaster is always quite derogatory about Bruce Lee, saying things like he was one legged and that generally he wasn't as good as he was made out to be.. Despite this I still find myself admiring his abilities and the lengths he went to in order to achieve the level of physical fitness that he did. I find it hard to believe that anyone could have anything other than admiration for someone who was obviously incredibly driven and dedicated to his art.

    What are your thoughts on Bruce Lee? Am I buying into the whole mythology that surrounds him or was he as great as I and many others like me believe he was?

    Kevin
    Not really kevin , there are some people who like bruce lee as the way he was , and there were some people who did ' nt like bruce lee at all . I ' m just sharing my thoughts with you . Bruce lee ' s life , martial arts training , carreer , was always in the center of controversies . We ' ve had aguments about him on this forum . That the moderators of this forum , have decided to close the bruce lee topic . I myself was involved in those bruce lee topics . But , I ' m a bruce lee fan , kevin go to The Bruce Lee Collection. com And you ' ll find souveniers and memorbilias about bruce lee . And you know people will always criticize bruce lee all they can .

    Bruce was ' nt a GrandMaster or a master , he was just a student of wing chun kung fu . But also had training in various types of martial arts in general . But to me bruce developed himself and evolved himself as a martial artist . Kevin overall no matter what people say about him , he was the greatest martial artist who ever lived , but besides him , there were Ed Parker , Chuck Norris , Joe Lewis , And many other masters of the martial arts . Just like Dan Inosanto when he got his blackbelt in the Ed Parker system of Kenpo , dan went onto train with bruce , infact a majority of Ed Parkers' students went onto train with bruce . To research bruce lee get those books written by Jesse Glover , you can get it through Warriorvideos.net . Which is what I did , it ' s true he ' s dead but his legacy still lives whenever people talk about him .

    Do your own research through books kevin or get some information on this topic thread too , concerning bruce himself . You can talk to people but , you still have to verify the information you have now with them .

    In the world of the CMA , if you ' re very proficient in your own skills then the Grand Master will promote you into sifu . But lets say your Grand Master will retire , and only has you to carry on the teachings of your art . Because , besides you there is no one else . Then your GM will eventually pass on the torch of GM to you . And from there hopefully , one of your student becomes skillful that , he gets promoted by you , to the next level . Every school of kung fu has it ' s own tradition of promoting from student into advance level , master , grandmaster .

    Every martial arts master will in turn have there own way of promoting there students into the next level until they reach master and GM level . Provided that your skill in the martial arts is similar to your GM .


    Kevin , if you checked out the JKD book that bruce wrote himself , you can tell that he did his own research towards the evolvement and development of his own JKD . To me other martial artist did ' nt mind learning martial arts from bruce ,
    because they knew that he was the best . But the masters who talk bad about him , probably are jealous of him . Because what took other martial artist many years of their lives to reach mastery level , it took bruce only a short period of time to master a technique . Bruce was a non traditionalists who did ' nt like tradition , although he respected tradition . And he did ' nt believe in styles anymore as times went by for him . He just took the techniques that was useful for him and reject what was less essential . Overall to me he was the man .

  10. #10
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    I have not read post but I have to say that in answer to the question no and you're severely mentally limited if you think anything close to yes.
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


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  11. #11
    Bruce Lee was neither a MASTER, nor a GRANDMASTER!

    He WAS an excellent Showman!

    We do not know what kind of a fighter he was, but from his movies we can deduce his level of skill. His skill was above average for his time, but he was not advanced nor excelptional in ability.

    His philosophical and theoretical thinking was not particularly advanced either. He merely reintroduced to a more modern audience questions, theories and philosophies that have been in the minds of Martial Artists for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

    He read alot and took what he liked from what others had written for his own personal use. There is nothing wrong with this, however this ideas only appear deep to those who are unfamiliar with these ideas, theories and philosophies, NOT to those who are familiar with them and their originators.

    He was neither an innovator, nor a originalist! He was a popularizer through his unique approach to film production and fight choreography which was designed to MAKE HIM LOOK GOOD!

    Add to all this his mysterious and untimely death at the apex of his popularity and good marketing and we got a phenomenon that inspired generations of young martial artists.

    Fascination with Bruce Lee can be a great motivator for a young Marital Artist, that is young in training, NOT young in age. However, if one is still fascinated to the point of worshiping, or blind devotion to the IDEA of Bruce Lee, as they further their Martial Arts experience, then they have not matured adequately.

    ________________________________

    On the matter of a young Master or Grandmaster.....

    Age does matter. It is immaterial whether one has trained, 20 hours a day for 15 years and is 20 years or old or not. Ability withers with age, injury and infirmity. It is experience, wisdom and understanding of theories, principles and applications that determine one's maturational classification. 15 to 20 years is NOT enough experience for one to be equated with TRUE MASTERS and GRANDMASTERS, both terms which have been overused to the point of rendering them meaningless anyway.

    Now days these terms are used for marketing and one-up-manship purposes.
    Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 10-16-2011 at 03:13 AM.

  12. #12
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    I always thought Grandmaster was a term made up by McDojos...

    I have lived in china a long time and I speak the language.

    1. 师父 Shifu is a term given by the disciple not anyone else. If someone chooses to call you Shifu thats his thing. The SHI means teacher, The FU is Father. Teacher father.

    2. I use the term ShiYe (YE = Grandfather) to refer to my Master. That is because he is 89 years old... and old enough to be my grandfather. If I was 50 i would call him shifu.

    3. I have never heard the word sigung, i assume it is a southern thing.

    These are family terms and do not in any way imply the level of teacher. It simply means you are a disciple in the family.

    Shifu DOES NOT mean master in the western sense. It means a teacher who is like a father. Master in terms of someone who is expert at their skill is called 'HaoShou'好手 or Gaoshou' 高手 lit. 'good hand' and 'high hand' respectively. You would only use these terms to describe someone and not to address them.

    4. We have the term DaShi or great teacher. It implies fame. You wouldnt refer to your own teacher as Dashi. If he was famous and you were a long way below you may use it. It is unusual in wushu and is more commonly used for buddhist or taoist masters.

    Dashi is probably the closest to word to grandmaster. But I don't think it would be appropriate for Bruce because he was more famous as an expert than as a teacher.

    In China we refer to Bruce as a 'Wulin Gaoshou' An expert of the martial arts. (Wulin means 'the forest of wushu' and refers to the fraternity of wushu experts).

    Hope that helps.

  13. #13
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    Thanks for all the replies. I'm not a Bruce Lee obsessive by the way. In fact for a long time I didn't think he was that good at all. I'm beginning to come full circle now and I am starting to appreciate his skill a bit more as I look around and outside of my own style in order to improve my own skill and understanding as a Martial Artist.
    I've been studying a variant Crane Style for about 10 years, I'm in my mid 30's.. I'm thinking of maybe taking up Wing Chun and stopping going to my current school within the next couple of years. Not that I feel I have completely mastered Crane Style (not by a long way) but I think the combination of some of the techniques we apply in my current style and the techniques within Wing Chun would compliment each other and make me a more complete Martial Artist.
    Kevin

  14. #14
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    If you created a system, are the lineage holder of one, are the top ranking individual, etc, then grand master seems to currently be the most common title in use, both inside of CMA and outside.

    Bruce Lee would be considered a GM under that definition.

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