Did Bruce Lee reach the level of Grandmaster?

[Fa Xing]

First, most of us Jun Fan Gung fu/JKD practitioners refer to Bruce as Sijo.

Second, Bruce had a set curriculum for what he taught; and while that curriculum has now changed over the years with his students, it was pretty well set by the LA Chinatown era.

Bruce Lee had plenty of street fights growing up, and there are plenty of anecdotal stories of him fighting other martial artists here the states, particularly Wong Jack Man which was the catalyst for his development of Jeet Kune Do.

On the set of "Enter the Dragon" he fought a challenge match that was seen by the entire crew, and was even captured on film but that film was later destroyed by Warner Bros. because they thought it had nothing to do with the film itself.

Another thing, Bruce also fought in a boxing championship while in high school growing up in Hong Kong, and he supposedly fought a Thai boxer in Thailand while shooting the Big Boss.

Bruce may not have killed anyone, but he certainly had experience to back up his fighting philosophy. Plus, much of the focus mitts, kicking shields, and protective equipment came Bruce and his group because they were the very few in the US doing any full contact at the time. Don't believe me, go ask Dan Inosanto and Jerry Poteet, they'll tell you how it was.

Most people bash Bruce because they are 100% ignorant of what he was doing back then. They see his movies, which he obviously modified his movements so they looked better on the screen, and think to themselves that was all there is. Bull****!

Go read his notes, and really take some time to think about what he was talking about. If you still don't get it, go out and train under some of his students. But don't be a god**** keyboard warrior, trashing someone who has been dead for almost 40 years.

Was Bruce Lee a grandmaster? I don't know, and don't really care, what I do is use his example and discover myself through martial arts whether it's hitting a heavy bag or full contact sparring.

Peace.

[Drake]

Not even the dead are safe here. You should know that by now.

At any rate, most here agree with you. I don't understand why people get so hung up on what "title" he held. He did a lot of good things for the TCMA community, and made a lot of fun movies. If anything, he was a cultural icon, and redefined a lot of misconceptions westerners held.

He did a lot more good than harm.

[Jimbo]

Well, I personally wasn't trashing BL. Of course he was far more than his movies, and what he did in the movies was obviously modified for the screen. There are many people who do trash BL online, no doubt. It's an unfortunate trend in forums that many like to look for another person's flaws (or perceived flaws) and focus on them. However, just because every sentence that's written about him in a particular post isn't singing all of his praises does not necessarily equal trashing or disrespecting him.

Keep in mind that BL studied the writings and/or skills of many greats too, including Jack Dempsey, Gene LeBell, Wally Jay, etc., as well as accounts of Tsukahara Bokuden, and other ancient Japanese writings on swordsmanship, etc. He simply modified some of the sword writing philosophies to apply to his empty-hand philosophy. There are others who have done at least as much, but are not household names in the West. As well I know many name MAists also learned from him.

I have always respected BL for what he had accomplished. What I haven't agreed with is those who say he was the greatest MAist who ever lived, or the only one who ever went outside of the accepted traditions of his time. I met Dan Inosanto in 1982, and he was one of the best MAists I've ever seen. IMO, he epitomized what BL said JKD should be; that is, making your MA your own, without being hindered by the limitations of a system or belief. Not to mention a very confident yet humble person.

[TenTigers]

Nothing gets by us!!
You hear me? Nothing!!!!!


:d

[bawang]

i critisize bruce lee because he is my chilese brother. if you kiss ass thats not true respect.

[Brule]

I know a lot of folks have Bruce on a pedestal for his movies, philosophy, training methods, etc....so i bought into it one day and decided to have a look years ago. Watched Enter the Dragon and was so bored outta my mind. I can't say he was a decent actor even. His onscreen 'fights' were nothing to be proud of. I think people got caught up in Bruce because he brought his MA into the open where there may not be that much exposure to the American audiences at that time. But to be calling him a great fighter, grandmaster, master etc...is a little far fetched. Let's not worry about who has what title, it makes no difference in your skill, instead worry about practising every day and refining what you have.

[SPJ]

to me and my brothers: bruce lee for wc/boxing, rocky for boxing or rambo for fighting

are the same on the big screen.

1. know your limits (strength and weakness)

2. training hard daily to exceed limits or pushing up the ceiling/envelop.

most important doing things straight from the heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hks5pXbV21A

[Scott R. Brown]

I know a lot of folks have Bruce on a pedestal for his movies, philosophy, training methods, etc....so i bought into it one day and decided to have a look years ago. Watched Enter the Dragon and was so bored outta my mind. I can't say he was a decent actor even. His onscreen 'fights' were nothing to be proud of. I think people got caught up in Bruce because he brought his MA into the open where there may not be that much exposure to the American audiences at that time. But to be calling him a great fighter, grandmaster, master etc...is a little far fetched. Let's not worry about who has what title, it makes no difference in your skill, instead worry about practising every day and refining what you have.

Keep in mind the movie is now 40 years old! It was ground breaking in its day compared to what else was being produced. Even his skills were an improvement on what was showcased in other movies. I mean, come on! Sonny Chiba? Shaw Brothers? The other movies available at the time rarely showcased much in the way of skills! Sure, it doesn't hold up to modern "good" martial arts movies, but nothing back then does!

Also, the movie was not meant to show martial arts as much as it was to showcase Bruce and his muscles, LOL!

[Brule]

Maybe you're right Scott in that i am comparing to more modern action sequences, but nevertheless, i think you hit the nail in that the movies were more about showcasing Bruce than showcasing MA. He did want to be a 'star' didn't he?

[Kevin73]

Since the term grandmaster is a japanese use of their ranking system. I would say that BL was not a grandmaster. He could be called a "sijo" or founder if what he taught could be a system, which it wasn't. It was a set of concepts to try and teach someone how to learn and create their own approach. Some people have turned it into a set system and only teach what BL taught. Others, such as his top student Dan Inosanto, teach the concepts but incorporate many other arts that BL never studied or learned (FMA's, BJJ, Muay Thai).

BL was a product of the times. Movies like "Logan's Run" were very popular with their anti-authority stance and not to trust the establishment. Most of BL's "notes" were direct copies of other books. Linda Lee published his private notes on books and claimed that they were his own ideas when she published "The Tao of JKD" after his death, and no citations were given as to where they originally came from. BL studied with lots of other people in California who were already combining arts and studying with each other (contact with Kajukenbo crowd and stayed with Ed Parker), that wasn't new either. BL's main thing was he was famous so people listened to him, just like today. An actor makes a political statement and we somehow give it more weight.

BL also wasn't challenged because he taught non-chinese. BL was non-chinese to the chinese because he was half german and born in the US. Ark Wong and others already had schools in California open to anyone. That nonsense was just marketing to build more hype and have people buy into the anti-establishment stuff.

I think he was a very talented athlete who was honest about finding things out for himself. But, we will never know where his journey would have taken him. Some of those that knew him (Ed Parker, Wally Jay and Gene LeBell) have stated that he was very gifted, but shallow in his knowledge, so I would not say he was a master either.

[Ray Pina]

Bruce Lee created his own style JKD.

If he is or isn't a grandmaster depends on how you view it. His students have students, so that makes him a grand master.

The question is, was he ever granted permission to teach or to claim a style. He didn't train Wing Chun very long. He didn't train any one style too long.

I don't hold that against him. If one has spent about 7 years training, they can pick up other style attributes relatively quickly.

I admire Bruce Lee for his persona, spirt and most of all movies. I love his movies and the characters he plays in them.

But to the heart of your question, I view Bruce Lee as a lifelong, dedicated martial artists. He wasn't an exemplary fighter in his day. He's not like Chuck Lidell or even Chuck Norris... fighters who went to the screen. Bruce Lee was first and foremost an actor..... like Marky Mark in The Fighter. Or Sylvestor Stalone in Rocky.

Inspiring characters. But you have to view them healthily as a man, and not as a child with popcorn in one's lap.

[GeneChing]

International Icon > Grandmaster

[David Jamieson]

International Icon > Grandmaster

True enough, true enough. lol

[Ray Pina]

International Icon > Grandmaster

Yes and no.

Bruce will be remembered forever... he also had an early death.

Bruce Lee is the Golden Turtle shell on the emperor's wall.... a grandmaster turtle is content living out his long years with his foot in the mud.

But the reason I love Bruce Lee is because he was a rebel and did what he wanted even if it cost him his life. That's living.

[hskwarrior]

Yes and no.

Bruce will be remembered forever... he also had an early death.

there is NO bigger martial artist than bruce lee. not even Chuck Fukkin Norris....LOL.

He is KUNG FU........the ICON.

Interntational ICON for gung fu? YES....no NO....YES. all else is personal opinion.