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Thread: The Key to Internal is...

  1. #136
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  2. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    as regards standing practice being the key to internal:

    I personally believe that standing practice is of great benefit, for numerous reasons; based on my own study / practice, I see it, roughly, in 3 parts: awareness, balancing, transformation;

    initially, standing is about building awareness of ur self - it teaches u about how ur weight is distributed (e.g. - more on one leg than another, more forward / backward on ur feet); how u align posturally in gravity (e.g. - do u overly accentuate ur spinal curves, or underexentuate them; do you displace ur thoracic cage over ur pelvis in alignment or not; is ur head too forward, etc.); where u hold tension inappropriately; and what the state of ur breath is; as a relatively static practice, it provides an opportunity to notice all of these things in a situation where there is a relatively decreased amount of afferent sensory input occurring, which enable u to pay attention to the things above more readily than if u were moving, even slowly like in a taiji form; it also helps u notice the manner in which ur mind functions - how thoughts enter and how u attach to them, how u loose ur immediate awareness of the above things;

    after a while, things can begin to happen, which is the rebalancing phase: one of the main things that can occur is spontaneous movement; of this there r several types / qualities: people can experience shaking, swaying, or writhing types of movement; this can be due to both spontaneous muscular movement as the generator (also known as ideomotor activity), or other things - for example, when loaded in a certain manner over time, connective tissue can star to spontaneously "unwind", which means that the tension / compression oads in the CT will "cue" the muscular system to move in such a way that the CT tensions will start to work themselves out; this sort of movement can actually be extremely beneficial if one understands how to respond to it in context of standing practice - sometimes one needs to just "go with the flow", other times, one needs to actually concertedly maintain standing in relative neutral; over time, one changes the way one relates to gravity and the ground through the structure; also, one can experience various sorts of emotional changes during practice - things from the past can "come up" and one can have a wide range of feelings, sometimes swinging from one extreme to another - at this point, having a teacher who has gone through this phase is helpful; it is also at this point that the Taoist classics talk about spontaneous manifestation of sights and sounds, and how one should not get distracted by these phenommena; basically, if we r talking about a neuromusculoskeletal rebalancing, the neural part can result in stimulation of various visual / auditory cortices, resulting in the above mentioned manifestations; finally, one can experience various changes in the breath, where one can experience a wide range of breathing patterns that seem to change of their own accord without rhyme or reason; these and other things sign like temperature changes, r signs of the autonomic nervous system is rebalancing, or more specifically, moving from a chronic sympathetic to a more parasympathetic state (which is the phase within which tissue regeneration - healing - takes place); over time, the CT will also change, as fibroblasts start laying down new CT fibers in context of the improved alignment as opposed to aberrant force vectors that had previoully been sitting in the CT system, creating conflict and dysfunction;

    the next stage, transformation, is what happens when one has a) full awareness of body / breath / mind and b) the various physical / emotional dysfunctions present in the system have been re-integrated to the degree that they no longer create undue strain on the system's ability to maintain a balanced autonomic system, and the drive towards homeostasis is optimized; this is the point where standing practice becomes transformative - where one can stand and instantly achieve integrated function of the breath and the postural system relative to the ground reaction force coming up from the earth through the legs, pelvis, spine and cranium - it's where u get that instantaneous feeling of being energized, a feeling of seemingly endless spaciousness throughout the joints and CT system, where the cranium seems to "bob" or be buoyant on top of the spine - at this point, one experiences a sense of global freedom, as well as manifestation of the so-called channels "opening" (it is at this pint that one completes the Orbital Circulations as well)

    of course, all of the above is described classically in various Taoist treatises - it's just not delineated so explicitly, and of course much of the language is metaphorical, because at the time there was less understanding of human anatomy and physiology than there is now - nevertheless, the practice can be fully and validly articulated from a contemporary standpoint, which is useful in terms of contextualizing the practice for modern-day practitioners, as well as for doing away with the mysticism aspect that many people use to obfuscate rather than to reveal the simple, yet profound nature of something like standing practice

    of course, there is much more: u can do all of the above lying down, sitting, or walking as well -(it's just slightly different in each case); then one can engage in various other practices, some alone, some w a partner to progress and refine this - these drils can b martial or nonmartial in nature;

    finally, one can work with / teach others, which requires one to have a whole different level of understanding, especially if one is teaching this to people with clinical issues (which, as a PT, I have had much occasion to do, and have seen uniformly positive results in people with long standing histories of various dysfunctions;

    but anyway, just my 2 cents based on my experience of standing practice...

    addendum: this is the original topic of this thread, right? I mean, no one can accuse me of going OT now, right? of course, if anyone wants to say I know nothing about internal, and I'm sure they will , fine; but if they want to discount what I say, I hope that they will go through my post point by point and key specifically what is wrong and why - I invite anyone to do that and will be happy to dialogue about specifics; but if people insist on just dismissing broadly what i say without addressing specifics, that's just going to get them called out as a troll
    I warned him, but he didn't listen. He is like a child you tell stay away from the stove or he'll get burned, but he HAS to keep pushing it and pushing it til he does.

  3. #138
    BTW, I doubt he'll understand a word you said Chris and it will be YOUR fault he's an idiot!

  4. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    what troll? there's a troll here? where? where?
    What? Who? Where? How?

  5. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    I warned him, but he didn't listen. He is like a child you tell stay away from the stove or he'll get burned, but he HAS to keep pushing it and pushing it til he does.
    honestly, I'm not even interested in him anymore - he spews the usual, party-line "internalist" pablum; guys like him are a dime a dozen: if u don't agree wholesale with what they say, then u know nothing, etc., etc.; as usual, there's no middle ground - it's all or nothing w them: when u don't agree w their perspective on "qi" and whatnot, when u propose a view that doesn't fit their view, then it's clear u just don't understand "qi" at all;

    anyway, i posted my perspective on standing practice, as per the OP; if someone wants to speak to that, either agreeing or critiquing it, that's fine, i am happy to talk specifics with them; otherwise, it's just pointless

  6. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyrat View Post
    i had a friend who does yiquan. when he does his standing practice, he said depending on the posture, he has the "intent" of doing a certain movement, like raising his arms up for example, while holding still.

    honestly, i still don't see the point. though i got the impression that it was a form of dynamic tension. holding still while having the intent of moving in the mind.
    when u "intend" a movement, there's a phenommenon called "pre-contraction", which is where u feel some increase in muscle tone of core stabilizers (e.g. - spinal mutifidi) in anticipation of movement; this correlates to something called the occulo-gyro-cephalic reflex, which is where you have a complex of various postural stabilizers priming for contraction based upon what direction ur eyes look - which correlates directly to the taiji principle of 'yi ngan ling san" - with the eyes, lead the body - suggesting that within practice of taiji, an intuitive understanding arose of the above mentioned reflex;

    so the "point" is very simple - it is one way to practice core stabilization, focusing specifically on the pre-contraction phase - this makes a great deal of sense, since we know that when u lack that pre-contraction, and many people do, ur core stabilization is less efficient, and therefore, u do more "work" with peripheral phasics (hamstrings, superficial fibers of psoas, quadratus umborum, latissimus etc.) rather than proximal tonic muscles (deep psoas, transverse abdominals, pelvic floor, multifidi etc), and as such, u do things more "externally", using peripheral muscles to do the job of the more "internal" core stabilizers; (of course, there is a correlation to harmony of pelvic diaphragm, respiratory diaphragm and cranial diaphragm function, relating to the classically described locations / functions of the three dan tiins / elixir fields...); of course, functionally, if u wish to operate "internaly" (using minimal force / effort to move an opponent), u have to operate out of an optimally efficient core stabilization strategy - otherwise u aren't connected from head to toe (and if u look at how multifidi run from one spinal level to another, u can immediately understand how when they function they connect the entire spine as a single functional unit - it's quite amazing, actually); the yi quan paradigm is to practice unifying the body / mind complex in an incremental manner - standing symetrically, then asymmetrically, then moving linearly, then moving non-linearly (diagonals), then working with partners, opponents, etc.

    see, yet another example of how various aspects "internal" practice can be readily described via biomechanics and contemporary understanding of anatomy / physiology; essentially, it's objective validation of the subjective empirical knowledge underlying it; it DOESN"T have to be all or nothing / one or the other - to preach the exclusivity of internal practice is the equivalent of putting ur fingers in ur ears and going "lalalalalala" - just because one person cannot describe internal practice from a biomechanical / physiological perspective doesn't mean it cannot be done at all - I mean, it took me over 15 years to get to this point with a great deal of study of various areas of knowledge (biomechanics, physioilogy, complex systems, tensegrity, osteopathy, motor learning theory etc.) to get here, plus I had to put in the time actualy doing the standing practice so that I had a direct experience of all of these things (usually the direct experience came first - afterwards, i would go out and research what was underlying it);

    knowledge needs must evolve; to deny this fundamental fact is to propogate ignorance; people need to open their minds and be wiling to acknowledge that the standard party lines don't hold true anymore, that we have entered into an age of synthetic integration...
    Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 10-27-2011 at 06:56 AM.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    I think the saying is about movement, small is better than big move and no movement is better than small movement.
    Ah, no, that's not it.
    And how the heck is no movement in a MA better than small movement?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #143
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    Pulling no punches I see TGY.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    Pulling no punches I see TGY.
    One of the many reason that I stay here is because of guys like TGY.
    After over 30 years in the MA, I still learn from guys like him.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    honestly, I'm not even interested in him anymore - he spews the usual, party-line "internalist" pablum; guys like him are a dime a dozen: if u don't agree wholesale with what they say, then u know nothing, etc., etc.; as usual, there's no middle ground - it's all or nothing w them: when u don't agree w their perspective on "qi" and whatnot, when u propose a view that doesn't fit their view, then it's clear u just don't understand "qi" at all;

    anyway, i posted my perspective on standing practice, as per the OP; if someone wants to speak to that, either agreeing or critiquing it, that's fine, i am happy to talk specifics with them; otherwise, it's just pointless
    Fine...I disagree with you, your Master, your Master's Master, your Master's Master's Master, and the Horses you all rode in on! But only because you didn't go into enough detail. Perhaps if you would actually be more specific you MIGHT be able to convince me......

    .......which I KNOW is your first, foremost and ONLY prioity in life!!

    Because THAT is the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger, that is, you keeping me entertained with EXcruciating detail!!!

    Thank you.....and YOU are Welcome!

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzsnXmKzEaM

  12. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Okay........well.........except for Sinanju, which EVERYONE knows is the Sun Source of ALL Martial Arts!

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    IF you knew who you were talking to, you'd show A LOT more respect.
    Something tells me that John has been doing TCMA longer than you have been alive.
    Way longer.
    One of his teachers was a "living treasure" of China.
    You should listen to the man.
    Nice "appeal to authority"...look it up.

    EO

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    Nice "appeal to authority"...look it up.

    EO
    Considering that HIS appeal was to his so called authorities, it was quite appropriate.
    Tit for tat.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #150
    as regards the ORIGINAL post:

    Eric makes an initial and valid proposition regarding standing meditation:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Olson View Post
    This helps identify structural hang ups and inefficiencies. The next step is to carry that efficiency into other postures, movements and techniques.
    EJ responds with additional salient and, IMPE, an acutely accurate and useful comment:
    Quote Originally Posted by extrajoseph View Post
    it is not standing meditation, it is standing awareness, you concentrate actively and continuously on every part of your body while stand still and allow the internal pain to make you become aware of your external deficiency and correct them accordingly; only when there is external efficiency (being comfortable, free from pain and natural), can there be the seeds of internal accomplishment.
    HW 108 rejoins in his usual quasi-crytic manner (by referring to something but not delineating specifics), but he does correctly identify the ontological progression of solo to partner training:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Yes, there is more to it, but you have hit the nail with Zhan Zhuang (standing) training, which can then be accompanied with specific, not so well known two men training.
    Ozzy Dave contributes his personal experience, correctly identifying the aspect of training proprioceptors to establish "root", both statically (solo) and dynamically (resisted partner training):
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzy Dave View Post
    Standing to me is primarily about proprioception, "creating a root" but what many fail to understand is that it must be tested in other forms of training and finally in non-compliant training with a partner.
    HW108 then mentions correctly that standing practice involves more than just generation of root, which is also an excellent point;
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    I have been taught that Zhan Zhuang training goes far beyond creating roots. Roots are the first "benefit" of the training, but like so many things related to the relatively profound TCMAs, many practitioners do not go beyond the first step
    so there was at least the potential for some productive discussion

    of course, it was too good to be true, because then the thread got sidetracked by Robinhood playing the Internal Police:
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    There is a very clear difference between internal application and external application, if you don't think there is, then you are external person only thinking you have some internal.
    If you have not done standing for years at a minimum, there is no way you no what internal is or could even begin to apply it.
    So without the standing training, you are just external guys thinking there is no internal, or maybe hopping there is no internal or thinking your external training will develop internal too, it will not.
    So saying what you think it is, just says you don`t know, because if you had it you would clearly know the difference!.
    later posts by him are in a similar vein - his going on and on and on at length pointing out how everyone else doesn't understand internal, but offering no evidence as to why they do not, nor substantiating in any way what gives him the purview to make such claims;

    so i tried asking him some specific questions about standing practice, in the hopes that he would supply some substance rather than broad dismissive statements without substantiation; however, he ignored me, instead citing my posts as proof that I knew nothing; this clearly revealed his trolling as such, and after I called him on his bluff, he seems to have disappeared...no real loss there...

    I then made a series of posts regarding the ORIGINAL TOPIC of the thread, going into rather specific detail about my thoughts on standing practice, both from my own persona experience and from the perspectives of both classical Taoist practice and contemporary anatomy / physiology / biomechanics; furthermore, I commented on another post, offering my take on why "intention" can be relevant to standing practice a la yiquan; lastly, I invited commentary, positive or negative, to address the specific points I put forth, in order to generate productive discussion;

    and what do we get here in response? nothing; not a peep; not a whisper; no real discussion at all on the topic;

    what gives?
    Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 10-27-2011 at 03:42 PM.

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