The Key to Internal is...

[Robinhood]

And what classics are those?

Yes, that would be the Tai-Chi Classics.

[Robinhood]

And what classics are those?

Tai-Chi Classics

[Robinhood]

Well, obviously you are not serious about this discussion.
Remo Williams indeed.
I suggest you do some reading on even basic bio-mechanics.

We are talking about using Chi, that goes beyond the basic study of bio mechanics.

Energy that you can not put in your hand, thought, gravity, light etc.

If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hmmm....where to start, where to start........

Robinhood:

I would say you should not presume what I have or do not have. You come across as a bit narrow-minded and naive. Has it not occurred to you that perhaps you are still a novice and do not have a full comprehension of the topic? That is how it looks from my perspective. I have been where you are, although not quite as naive. I out grew it because I chose to see things as they truly are and not accept the Kool-ade I was given.

I do agree it is not possible to talk to someone about some phenomena that is beyond their ability to understand. You make that very apparent with your comments. I could demonstrate to you the truth of what I say in person, but it is not something I can demonstrate in words. I can take any skill you demonstrate to me and explain and show you firsthand how it is bio-mechanics, as well as how to overcome it. But words alone will have no meaning to you absent direct experience. In that I agree with you.

To Joy:

Thank you for posting a clear example of a tai chi player using bio-mechanics to unseat a sumo wrestler. That video very clearly demonstrated by point of using pyschology, momentum and bio-mechanics and how effective it can be against a sumo wrestler.

However, these kinds demonstrations are not very good examples of tai chi's combat effectiveness, nor of internal skill as traditionally defined because they are very much like a magician's trick. When Akebono must stand and move according the rules set by the tai chi player, he is setup from the beginning. It would be the same as if Akebono had the tai chi player dress as a sumo wrestler and enter the ring according to Sumo rules.

At any rate, once one knows the setup, it may easily be overcome by simply changing the rules of the encounter, a simple strategy long understood by top generals and conquerors the world over for millenia and used to defeat many a narrowly skilled or minded opponent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We are talking about using Chi, that goes beyond the basic study of bio mechanics.

Energy that you can not put in your hand, thought, gravity, light etc.

If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.

[Robinhood]

Hmmm....where to start, where to start........

Robinhood:

I would say you should not presume what I have or do not have. You come across as a bit narrow-minded and naive. Has it not occurred to you that perhaps you are still a novice and do not have a full comprehension of the topic? That is how it looks from my perspective. I have been where you are, although not quite as naive. I out grew it because I chose to see things as they truly are and not accept the Kool-ade I was given.

I do agree it is not possible to talk to someone about some phenomena that is beyond their ability to understand. You make that very apparent with your comments. I could demonstrate to you the truth of what I say in person, but it is not something I can demonstrate in words. I can take any skill you demonstrate to me and explain and show you firsthand how it is bio-mechanics, as well as how to overcome it. But words alone will have no meaning to you absent direct experience. In that I agree with you.

To Joy:

Thank you for posting a clear example of a tai chi player using bio-mechanics to unseat a sumo wrestler. That video very clearly demonstrated by point of using pyschology, momentum and bio-mechanics and how effective it can be against a sumo wrestler.

However, these kinds demonstrations are not very good examples of tai chi's combat effectiveness, nor of internal skill as traditionally defined because they are very much like a magician's trick. When Akebono must stand and move according the rules set by the tai chi player, he is setup from the beginning. It would be the same as if Akebono had the tai chi player dress as a sumo wrestler and enter the ring according to Sumo rules.

At any rate, once one knows the setup, it may easily be overcome by simply changing the rules of the encounter, a simple strategy long understood by top generals and conquerors the world over for millenia and used to defeat many a narrowly skilled or minded opponent.

Well what can I say, but the same thing right back at you.

If you think you know my level, then you should be able to talk about it, but you seem to not have first hand experience as to what I am talking about.
If you have been at my level you would be able to know what I referring to and describe in bio mechanical terms, or at least internal talk,
, or take things from Tai-Chi Classics and covert it to bio mechanical terms.



Maybe one day we can meet, but till then we can just hash words at each other.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well what can I say, but the same thing right back at you.

If you think you know my level, then you should be able to talk about it, but you seem to not have first hand experience as to what I am talking about.
If you have been at my level you would be able to know what I referring to and describe in bio mechanical terms, or at least internal talk,
, or take things from Tai-Chi Classics and covert it to bio mechanical terms.



Maybe one day we can meet, but till then we can just hash words at each other.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not claim to know your level of skill, however your comments allow readers to draw a reasonable conclusion about your level of understanding. The fact you do not appear to have any insight into the bio-mechanics of movement, specifically tai chi, says a great deal about you to those of us that do have a clear understanding of bio-mechanics.

I do not want to take the time, and I have done this type of things a number of times in the past on this board, but I could very easily explain the bio-mechanics, momentum and psychology of joy's sumo vid. It is OBVIOUS to those who understand bio-mechanics and the martial arts use of demonstrations in order to give the impression of some magical or special power or ability. As I stated previously, it is similar to a magicians trick!

It is a setup from the beginning. And, as with a magician's trick, once one knows how it is done, it loses its mystery and specialness and it becomes ordinary, which it was from the start!

[YouKnowWho]

We all walked into the fog sometime in our life.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwBg&dur=156

Some walk out of the fog, some stay in the fog and can't find way out. For people who are out of the fog trying to communicate with people who are still in the fog is difficult. People just have to walk out of fog all by themselves.

When you walk in the fog, your view of the world is different. When you walk out of the fog, you then realize that the world in the fog and the world outside the fog are the same. If there are no monsters outside the fog, there should be no monsters inside the fog.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=monst...0&tx=102&ty=97

[Scott R. Brown]

Very much like Plato's Allegory of the Cave!

[Robinhood]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not claim to know your level of skill, however your comments allow readers to draw a reasonable conclusion about your level of understanding. The fact you do not appear to have any insight into the bio-mechanics of movement, specifically tai chi, says a great deal about you to those of us that do have a clear understanding of bio-mechanics.

I do not want to take the time, and I have done this type of things a number of times in the past on this board, but I could very easily explain the bio-mechanics, momentum and psychology of joy's sumo vid. It is OBVIOUS to those who understand bio-mechanics and the martial arts use of demonstrations in order to give the impression of some magical or special power or ability. As I stated previously, it is similar to a magicians trick!

It is a setup from the beginning. And, as with a magician's trick, once one knows how it is done, it loses its mystery and specialness and it becomes ordinary, which it was from the start!

I am not saying the sump guy and tai-chi guy is not bio mechanics, it looks like it to me also. I know what bio mechanics are, and internal goes beyond explainable bio mechanics.

Just because some guy does Tai-chi sets and is in a video does not mean that he is any good, almost everyone I have meet that knows the Tai-Chi has no idea of what internal energy is.

Almost everyone that practices Tai-Chi sets has no idea of the internal, the internal comes from doing the standing stuff, not Tai-Chi sets.

So tell me of your years of standing experience.?

Like Hendrick says, without first going through the double doors you will not know.

[YouKnowWho]

Besides talking about whether "internal" guys can generate power more efficiency than the "external" guys or not, Let's talk about how "internal" can be applied in the wrestling environment. Instead of talking about the striking world, let's talk about the grappling world.

I had played with many Taiji instructors in my life. The moment that I touched hands with them, they all felt like "internal" guys to me (not willing to commit on anything). The moment that I got them into clinching situation, they all acted like "external" guys and started to use their brute force and tried to get away.

Does this mean that "internal" don't work well in the wrestling environment when you and your opponent's body are connected as one? What's your guy's opinion on this?

[Robinhood]

Besides talking about whether "internal" guys can generate power more efficiency than the "external" guys or not, Let's talk about how "internal" can be applied in the wrestling environment. Instead of talking about the striking world, let's talk about the grappling world.

I had played with many Taiji instructors in my life. The moment that I touched hands with them, they all felt like "internal" guys to me (not willing to commit on anything). The moment that I got them into clinching situation, they all acted like "external" guys and started to use their brute force and tried to get away.

Does this mean that "internal" don't work well in the wrestling environment? What's your guy's opinion on this?

It does not matter, up, down, sideways, it still should work. Like I said before, just because a guy does Tai-Chi does not mean he has any internal, most don't have anything, they try to be soft and run from the action.

I don't think you have found a real internal guy yet.

[Dragonzbane76]

don't think you have found a real internal guy yet

I know one, HW108, he's right up your alley. You guys should get along fantastically.

[Scott R. Brown]

I am not saying the sump guy and tai-chi guy is not bio mechanics, it looks like it to me also. I know what bio mechanics are, and internal goes beyond explainable bio mechanics.

Just because some guy does Tai-chi sets and is in a video does not mean that he is any good, almost everyone I have meet that knows the Tai-Chi has no idea of what internal energy is.

Almost everyone that practices Tai-Chi sets has no idea of the internal, the internal comes from doing the standing stuff, not Tai-Chi sets.

So tell me of your years of standing experience.?

Like Hendrick says, without first going through the double doors you will not know.

I don't waste my time standing meditation. While I do not believe it is a complete watse of time, it is a not an efficient use of time. The fact you quoted Hendrik explains volumes.

I would agree that most people who practice tai chi do not understand internal principles, having said that I have seen no evidence that you do either.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you have found a real internal guy yet.

We can only talk about our life experience. We can't talk about something that we don't have personal experience with. My personal experience is that the moment that my body is connected with my opponent's body, the word "internal" no longer has meaning.

If I can glue my body on my opponent's body like an octopus wrap around a fish, how can you use your "internal' power to shake me off?

This is a short clip just for this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tAVs7MKyY