Should San Shou be open to all competitors and styles?

[YouKnowWho]

It will be fun to have more than 2 fighters to fight in the ring at the same time that anybody is allowed to fight any others.

[Dragonzbane76]

Imagine a structure that allowed standup technique with hand, foot, elbow and knee... grappling, throwing AND submission IF skillfully applied within, say, 5 to 10 seconds of hitting the ground.

sounds like a good format to me.

Although we invite everyone from all styles and areas, no one outside of CMA comes to our event for Shuai Chiao or San Shou? Now why is that? Why is it that other styles don't come? Do they feel they can not modify their technique for our competition? Are they scared they will see how bad they really are?

haha I don't think they are scared.

most people probably think it's some kind of club thing honestly. Not understanding the elements involved probably is a factor. As Ironeagle stated some of it because of the traditional part of it. Some tournaments have a mandatory forms clause in them. If you don't do forms you can't compete. Not unheard of. people are always hesitant of the unknown. And most tournaments have an elites kind of feel to them. just my opinion.

[Paul T England]

Professional yes, amature? not sure...maybe we need amature, semi pro and pro as in MMA.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Professional yes, amature? not sure...maybe we need amature, semi pro and pro as in MMA.

Interesting idea. Take this idea along with what Sifu Patterson said and it could be a decent format.

Amateur- Head gear, 12oz boxing gloves, shin guards, all Kung Fu and kickboxing techniques along with throws, sweeps, takedowns, pretty much the standard San Shou rules. Three two minute rounds.

Semi Pro- Head gear, small gloves to cover hands (MMA type), shin guards, all San Shou rules except when fighters hit the ground they have 30 seconds to submit or strike. Three three minute rounds.

Pro- No head gear or shin guards, small gloves to cover hands. All San Shou rules except when fighters hit the ground they have 1 minute to submit or strike. Two five minute rounds, three five minute rounds for title matches.

All matches take place on a Lei Tai. Also all elbows and knees for Semi Pro and Pro, and well as kicking a downed opponent in Pro (old Pride rule)

The other option is to cut the time down when the fight hits the ground. The current MMA rules heavily favor grapplers, whereas this would more heavily favor strikers. Could make for some entertaining fights!

[David Jamieson]

True, but why is it certain organizations try to keep other styles or competitors out. I personally feel it betters one as a martial artist to be able to test yourself against other styles.

"certain" organizations can blow me. lol
Essentially that issue is what is known as "the face game" and it is truly the number one most retarded aspect of traditional martial arts.

Let the face gamers have their circle jerk and carry on without them.
Their kung fu sucks anyway and their lineage is meaningless as tehy have tainted them with the face game and the art has degraded because of it.

screw those guys.

now, ask me how I really feel about it.

[Ray Pina]

Great special on marksmanship yesterday on History channel.... the U.S. Army developed competitions to force innovation and experimentation for better shooting methods.

The atmosphere of a club/gym/school that competes is on a different level than those that don't.

As far as San Shou, it should be open to all. But it might have difficulty attracting people who have dedicated and committed themselves to MMA.

I personally like MMA for the variation in tempo the ground offers. I wouldn't fight kick boxing or San Shou again because at this age, it requires too much cardio to break, and stand up fight. Break, stand up fight. It's nice to work the fence or ground.

Have any schools/organizations considered instead of opening up San Shou to others, to simply go compete in MMA? Other's are already there.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Great special on marksmanship yesterday on History channel.... the U.S. Army developed competitions to force innovation and experimentation for better shooting methods.

The atmosphere of a club/gym/school that competes is on a different level than those that don't.

As far as San Shou, it should be open to all. But it might have difficulty attracting people who have dedicated and committed themselves to MMA.

I personally like MMA for the variation in tempo the ground offers. I wouldn't fight kick boxing or San Shou again because at this age, it requires too much cardio to break, and stand up fight. Break, stand up fight. It's nice to work the fence or ground.

Have any schools/organizations considered instead of opening up San Shou to others, to simply go compete in MMA? Other's are already there.

That is fine for people who want to train that venue but why does it have to be directed at Kung Fu folks? No one questions why boxers, kickboxer, Muay Thai, collegiate wrestlers, Judo, ect don't compete in MMA. Sure, some of them do with cross training, but no one questions the ones who simply compete in their own venue as to why they don't compete in MMA.

I understand your logic Ray but you can't make a double standard for Kung Fu, San Shou is our full contact venue, just like other styles have their own.

[David Jamieson]

I understand your logic Ray but you can't make a double standard for Kung Fu, ...

But he will. That's his shtick. lol

[Ray Pina]

That is fine for people who want to train that venue but why does it have to be directed at Kung Fu folks? No one questions why boxers, kickboxer, Muay Thai, collegiate wrestlers, Judo, ect don't compete in MMA. Sure, some of them do with cross training, but no one questions the ones who simply compete in their own venue as to why they don't compete in MMA.

I understand your logic Ray but you can't make a double standard for Kung Fu, San Shou is our full contact venue, just like other styles have their own.

I agree with you completely. And I'm not knocking Kung Fu for having Kung Fu competitions. As you said, everyone does it.

I took the topic as being an indication that Kung Fu wanted to expose itself to a broader range of styles and thus tactics.... if that was the case, I though it made sense to go to MMA where it has the widest tool options, as apposed to bringing MMA to San Shou and then completely eliminating the ground game.

Judo, kick boxing, BJJ and boxing... these have all revealed themselves to be useful, if not essential tools for MMA/higher levels of unarmed combat. The forum is already there and by its nature open to everything.

Kung Fu competing against Kung Fu will definitely improve the level of Kung Fu if they use a San Da/San Shou/full contact method. This should be standardized. And I would go so far as forming a TCMA Full Contact association in which schools can be members for only the years they sanctioned, competing fighters. That would differentiate schools right off the bat.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I took the topic as being an indication that Kung Fu wanted to expose itself to a broader range of styles and thus tactics.... if that was the case, I though it made sense to go to MMA where it has the widest tool options, as apposed to bringing MMA to San Shou and then completely eliminating the ground game.

Not sure if it would be so much bringing MMA to San Shou as just allowing other styles, MMA included, a chance to compete in San Shou. I am completely against the CMA organizations that try and keep other styles from competing in their venues, as I think it is cowardly and BS to say the least. I think it would be great to see other styles, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, compete in San Shou.

Really you can break it down as testing one's set of skills. MMA favors grapplers, as there is all takedowns and grappling can go on until there is a stoppage or the ref stands them up. San Shou allows competitors to work on their striking skills along with throws and takedowns. Really it all depends on what you want to train and work on.

San Shou will never be as popular as MMA. Mostly because of the exposure MMA gets because of the UFC. Hell, no combat sport, not even boxing I don't think will ever be as popular now because of this. My point for this thread was to go aganist those CMA organizations that do not allow other styles to compete in San Shou, because it not only limits the competitors which in turn hurts the development of their own fighters but it also alienates the rest of the martial arts world from Kung Fu and CMA, which is not good for Kung Fu as a whole.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Popularity = what media forces down peoples throats.
He how controls the media, controls and dictates popularity.
Music is a prime example of this.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Popularity = what media forces down peoples throats.
He how controls the media, controls and dictates popularity.
Music is a prime example of this.

This. Think about where MMA was before the Fertita?? brothers and Dana White took over. They were all smart business men and marketed the hell out of it and made it mainstream through the media. If not for this, MMA would probably still be an underground sport with little to no backing.

It has been good for martial arts, except for the gazillion douchenozzles with TapOut shirts, sideways hats, and fake neck tattoos!!

[Ray Pina]

I think it would be great to see other styles, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, Taekwondo, compete in San Shou.

Those styles are all represented in MMA. MMA is not a style, it's a sport. A set of rules for a combat sport.

MMA favors grapplers, as there is all takedowns and grappling can go on until there is a stoppage or the ref stands them up. San Shou allows competitors to work on their striking skills along with throws and takedowns. Really it all depends on what you want to train and work on.

I agree and disagree with you here.

I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can't clobber the back of their head.... in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn't fair.

I appreciate long drown out ground games. It's each person's responsibility to improve their position.... that's regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands..... people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.

As for San Shou, I like it, but I don't like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage.... also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic..... MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.

If I would change anything, it would be to a single 20 min round format. If in 20 mins no one is KOed or tapped it's a draw.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember speaking to a few of the old school hardcore MMA guys and they were not happy with the direction of MMA under the UFC.
They felt it was being marketed to the masses in the wrong way, very much the same way many old school rappers dislike the direction of modern rap ( on of the analogies they used).
And this was before the show TUF.
They saw the writing on the wall and didn't like it.
But it worked for the UFC, the UFC IS MMA and MMA is UFC.
I think that because of how it is marketed that this is main reason so many TMA don't like MMA.

[Ray Pina]

Definitely.

I've never been to an MMA show I wasn't fighting in.... I just don't like the crowd/scene. With that said, I don't like most crowds/scenes.

It's not much different than football or any male entertainment: t!ts, beer, cars, explosions, bad movies.

.... but it gives young athletes an opportunity to make a living at a sport they love. There's some money now.

Don't really get a great vibe from Dana White but sometimes he seems OK, like a good guy.... got to give him credit. He saw the potential, stuck through with it when it was outlawed and locked it down.