Should San Shou be open to all competitors and styles?

[David Jamieson]

I remember speaking to a few of the old school hardcore MMA guys and they were not happy with the direction of MMA under the UFC.
They felt it was being marketed to the masses in the wrong way, very much the same way many old school rappers dislike the direction of modern rap ( on of the analogies they used).
And this was before the show TUF.
They saw the writing on the wall and didn't like it.
But it worked for the UFC, the UFC IS MMA and MMA is UFC.
I think that because of how it is marketed that this is main reason so many TMA don't like MMA.

I like mma.

It's the propensity of belligerent loud mouth ass holes that turns me off from it's fanbase.
More respect and dignity would be nice, without all the false sh1t about egolessness and all that like you find in your typical mma club.

at levels of elite, beyond the amateur and beyond the riff raff, good training is good training period. doesn't matter what the art.

[ginosifu]

I think MMA slightly favors grapplers, not because the ground can go on and on, but because if someone fails a shoot, you can't clobber the back of their head.... in that instance the risk/reward ratio isn't fair.

I appreciate long drown out ground games. It's each person's responsibility to improve their position.... that's regardless of where you find yourself (circling, against the cage, on your back). Negating that element is like telling a kick boxer not to use his hands..... people have developed entire games based around their ground game, or just the fear of it.

As for San Shou, I like it, but I don't like the headgear and the big gloves combined with quick breakage.... also usually combined with small rings. It often becomes sloppy and frantic..... MMA more accurately depicts the flow and tempo of a real fight.

Ray, I disagree with your statement that MMA only slightly favors Grapplers. In fact the whole cage idea is to prevent moving around and stand up fighting. The idea that MMA more accurately depicts a real fight is something I would disagree with as well.

Not to say that san shou is a more accurate model for a street fight but, not every street fight should go to the ground. Grinding it out on the ground for 5 or 10 minutes is not how a street fight would be. What if there is glass and debris on the ground? What if they are not alone? Would you grapple with a guy when his friends might be close by? No street fight has guys standing and circling each other looking for an opening in their guard stance.

MMA is definately brutal and a hardcore slug fest. I see it as the biggest and strongest guy (or gal) who is in the best shape usually will win the MMA matches. Not always but most of the time, I do see some good skillful peeps out there that are trying hard to be good fighter.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

I like mma.

It's the propensity of belligerent loud mouth ass holes that turns me off from it's fanbase.
More respect and dignity would be nice, without all the false sh1t about egolessness and all that like you find in your typical mma club.

at levels of elite, beyond the amateur and beyond the riff raff, good training is good training period. doesn't matter what the art.

What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always pounded on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don't exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.

In one Karate tournament that I hit on my opponent's face and drew some blood (it was no face contact rule). I had to

- sit at the edge of the ring away from my opponent,
- turned my back on my opponent, and
- predented that I had just done something terrible wrong.

[Fa Xing]

What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always punched on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don't exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.

This is something I have also always disliked, although I can imagine that it is very not express your joy of winning something you've worked so hard to achieve. However, I have grown up studying Eastern spiritual/religious traditions which teach people to show humility in victory after defeating an opponent(s).

[Golden Arms]

San Shou is an open format, its a set of rules that anyone can fight under. I have only fought in a few fights where it was set up to favor members of the organization for some reason other than them wanting you to join to give them some income (like it or not any competitive venue is likely going to be controlled by money as it grows).

The funny thing to me is that in the 7 years of San Shou fighting that I did, I only fought members of Chinese martial arts schools about 20% of the time, and much of that was in the first 2 years. Chinese schools by and large do not appear to fight much.

A good method seems to be to offer Judo/BJJ, Pancration/MMA of some sort, kickboxing or continuous stand up sparring with heavy contact, and San Shou all at the same event. That way there is some cross over, the people that want to fight can fight in multiple venues and there are more bodies.

Having been on the judging/ref side of things a few times I see why that doesnt usually work out as well though. Finding people that will judge or ref honestly (or even volunteer) is difficult, and money is usually tight.

[Ray Pina]

Not to say that san shou is a more accurate model for a street fight but, not every street fight should go to the ground. Grinding it out on the ground for 5 or 10 minutes is not how a street fight would be.

1) a ring is a closed off space just like a cage. A cage allows action to continue where in a ring a person can fall through the ropes. You can also push off a cage.

2) A fight will go where the fighters take it. I've seen many street fights go to the ground. I almost want to say most but won't.

What if there is glass and debris on the ground? What if they are not alone?

Then they'll be fighting multiple people over glass.... is this a San Shou specialty?

Would you grapple with a guy when his friends might be close by?

It would depend on the situation. But grabbing a first guy and controlling him into the other might be a better option than duking it out.

No street fight has guys standing and circling each other looking for an opening in their guard stance.

31 seconds into this video you'll see guard and then it being passed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp-rZ...eature=related

These entire series of YouTube street fight videos will without a doubt show fights wind up on the ground.

I see it as the biggest and strongest guy (or gal) who is in the best shape usually will win the MMA matches. Not always but most of the time,

It's usually the strongest, best shape guy who dominates any athletic endeavor....which is why conditioning/circuit training is a crucial aspect for anyone fighting.

The guy who conditions more, spars more, rolls more, heavy bags more, etc., etc., etc.... becomes strong and skilled. Everyone you see fighting in the UFC is that guy: a dedicated, hard training fighter. They are not muscle heads they pulled from body building competitions. Their level of martial arts is much higher than ours.

[Ray Pina]

What turned me off in most cage fight was after the winning, the winner always pounded on his chest and expressed extream macho attitude. I assume that came from the boxing tradition. This kind of attitude just don't exist in most of the TCMA tournaments.

In one Karate tournament that I hit on my opponent's face and drew some blood (it was no face contact rule). I had to

- sit at the edge of the ring away from my opponent,
- turned my back on my opponent, and
- predented that I had just done something terrible wrong.

The difference is that these men are dealing with a greater level of emotion because they're not facing "maybe get a bloody nose" in a no contact fight.They made an appointment to fight a professional for their career. A lot is at stake for these men.... including their well being. They're pumped full of adrenaline after laying it all on the line... they're celebrating a victory. Or even just finishing uninjured. ..... its not an easy thing to do. Or more people here would do it.

[Lucas]

well in regards to multiple people and real fights with grappling. if you were to fight me and my friend (thats just two people, imagine 4 or 5 where conflict actually does break out and all the guys want you down badly) and you even clinched with him, you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away... then its over. if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this. show me one vid of a guy fighting at least two people and going to the ground looking for side control/ mount or what have you. ground fighting is not realistic in multiple person encounters. it just isnt. the most you would want to grapple is if you are forced by being engaged, or if you are using light grappling with constant mobility to dictate the movement of one person to shield you from another.

but then that only works if its 2 people. if you have 3 people, one will always be behind you. for real

[YouKnowWho]

if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this.

This is my concern about the current MMA. The "mobility training - always ready to take off" is not emphasised. If you ever got into any gang fight, you should know that when cops come, you should take off ASAP.

[mjw]

Yes we have everything form forms, weapon, push hands, continuous, Shuai Chiao and san shou.

Although we invite everyone from all styles and areas, no one outside of CMA comes to our event for Shuai Chiao or San Shou? Now why is that? Why is it that other styles don't come? Do they feel they can not modify their technique for our competition? Are they scared they will see how bad they really are?

Any other CMA tournament promoters see this?

ginosifu

I don't know how it turned out but I once saw a 2 flyer type event that pushed Kungfu/tai chi forms then said they would then be doing point sparring with such and such karate not sure how it turned out though something like that might attract the other styles.....who knows.


I also say keep it open to all styles thats how you learn most in competition I would say.

[Ray Pina]

well in regards to multiple people and real fights with grappling. if you were to fight me and my friend (thats just two people, imagine 4 or 5 where conflict actually does break out and all the guys want you down badly) and you even clinched with him, you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away... then its over. if you look at real world videos of people actually being successfull in mutliple person encounters, mobility with striking is what you always see being successful. plenty of youtube vids support this. show me one vid of a guy fighting at least two people and going to the ground looking for side control/ mount or what have you. ground fighting is not realistic in multiple person encounters. it just isnt. the most you would want to grapple is if you are forced by being engaged, or if you are using light grappling with constant mobility to dictate the movement of one person to shield you from another.

but then that only works if its 2 people. if you have 3 people, one will always be behind you. for real

I just don't understand what the hell you're asking of me.... is it that I think it's a good idea to grapple with one guy on the ground while his five friends stand over me and give me a boot massage? ..... no, I don't think that's a good idea.

I'm a gringo living in Puerto Rico. Thank God everything is cool, but I got jumped twice within the first six months of living here. The second time by at least 15 people. Two with guns.... that's because I got lucky and took a pipe from one guy and his two friends a week before. That left me with a scar on my leg to today.

I really don't know how many people there were the second time because I ran to my truck, drove home, locked myself in, got a machete and am embarrassed to say called the cops! (I didn't call the cops after the first episode).

Home invasions are a neighborhood reality where I live now. Thus my new acute focus on firearms.

I don't fight. I don't go out. When I do, it's with my fiance to dinner. Being an American here, I can't hit anyone ever ... everyone's got a crazy cousin who will shoot you.

If I have to fight, thank God I recognize most major positions. Have trained them enough to know how to improve my position, the most likely reactions the other will use to counter....thank God I trained those positions with team mates I could trust, who are competitive and gave me their best. Thank God I competed for stakes against strangers who could care less about me.... I learned how to endure.

That's all I can hope for if I ever face another violent encounter.

If I was talking to somebody about sport fighting today, a young martial artist who thinks he got game, I'd tell him: "Stop being a pu$$y and go fight in the UFC."

And UFC would just generically mean go put yourself to that test. Go fight with these guys who want to go fight.... then you'll see.

I come down on TCMA, but if you're really fighting San Shou, than you are one of those guys. I've never trained San Shou, but I've competed. I've seen the other guys working the mitts. Those guys are real fighters.

But because I'm a pain in the a$$ I'd tell them they should go fight in MMA.... at least once. I also tell boogie borders they should stop dragging their co(ks in the water and stand up like a man.

Joking aside. If a San Shou guy is going MMA.... if he doesn't train BJJ he will soon. BJJ is now mandatory assignment for all martial artists.

OK. Too much writing when I should be work writing.... jogging. eating. vapor balloons and back to work.

[Lucas]

im not asking anything of you. its just my habbit to post my thoughts as i read threads. i have computer/internet access at work and often start posting then forget then come back to it, and most times my train of thought is broken so i just continue rambling on with what ever it looked like my original thought was. ive been jumped a couple times in my life too, it sucks, one ended with me taking a severe beating with no option but to get beaten. sucks balls

[hskwarrior]

you would have a side kick to your lower back, or a choke on your neck right away... then its over

It doesn't matter how much ground game you have. and with 4-5 guys trying to get you, there won't be any choking. He will get blind sided, drop to the ground and the pounding, kicking, and perhaps striking with items......then he's done for.

[hskwarrior]

vapor balloons

What is in your vapor balloon? and is it sticky green?

[YouKnowWho]

im not asking anything of you. its just my habbit to post my thoughts as i read threads. i have computer/internet access at work and often start posting then forget then come back to it, and most times my train of thought is broken so i just continue rambling on with what ever it looked like my original thought was. ive been jumped a couple times in my life too, it sucks, one ended with me taking a severe beating with no option but to get beaten. sucks balls

That was my idea. In one of my student's school, he always puts 3 guys into the ring and fight against each other. I do think one can develop some useful experience that way - mobility, alert, use one opponent to jam another opponent, ...