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Thread: Should San Shou be open to all competitors and styles?

  1. #61
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    Ray, how bout if they added a 30 second rule for ground work to it? After the time comes up unless a sub has been applied they stand them up.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  2. #62
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    Yes, but they can't apply their craft on the ground.
    And most BJJ purists couldn't strike their way out of a wet paper bag. Dude, if you can't see the double standard your creating, I don't know what to tell you.

    Also, Cung Le, the great savior to San Shou and Kung Fu as he has been called
    I feel gets very little respect in the way of MMA. Why is it most MMA folks always find an excuse to why Cung wins. They like to say he beat to "lesser guys" or "low caliber" fighters, yet most of the guys he beat had backgrounds and trained in BJJ, yet he was able to use his San Shou and wrestling skills to beat them. I am by no means saying Cung has beaten the best guys or that he is a contender, especially at his age now, but no one ever gives him or San Shou any credit for being successful in MMA.

    The point I am trying to make and you don't seem to understand is that there are fighters out there who could careless about MMA and do not want to compete in it. It is great that you love BJJ and it is hands down the best style to learn how to ground fight and submit, but even it has it's flaws and weaknesses. All styles and systems do, and most fighters have specialities or areas of fighting they are best at. MMA fighters are usually the most well rounded but like I said MMA is not everyone's cup of tea.
    Last edited by Iron_Eagle_76; 10-20-2011 at 06:58 AM.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76 View Post
    And most BJJ purists couldn't strike their way out of a wet paper bag. Dude, if you can't see the double standard your creating, I don't know what to tell you.
    I honestly don't see a double standard it letting everyone do what they want. By negating an entire range of fighting, ground fighting, you're dumbing down the forum instead of forcing advancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76 View Post
    Also, Cung Le, the great savior to San Shou and Kung Fu as he has been called
    I feel gets very little respect in the way of MMA. Why is it most MMA folks always find an excuse to why Cung wins. They like to say he beat to "lesser guys" or "low caliber" fighters, yet most of the guys he beat had backgrounds and trained in BJJ, yet he was able to use his San Shou and wrestling skills to beat them. I am by no means saying Cung has beaten the best guys or that he is a contender, especially at his age now, but no one ever gives him or San Shou any credit for being successful in MMA.
    I think Cung Le is a great fighter and respect him tremendously. I think he gets respect from other fighters simply because he has proven himself. It's unfortunate he gets dragged into the middle of these discussions.

    With that said, Cung Lee was a god of San Shou, he has not risen to that level of MMA. Michael Jordan was amazing in basketball, didn't do much in baseball. The credit is where credit is due.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Eagle_76 View Post
    there are fighters out there who could careless about MMA and do not want to compete in it. It is great that you love BJJ and it is hands down the best style to learn how to ground fight and submit, but even it has it's flaws and weaknesses. All styles and systems do, and most fighters have specialities or areas of fighting they are best at. MMA fighters are usually the most well rounded but like I said MMA is not everyone's cup of tea.
    You are preaching to the choir.

    First and foremost, I would say martial arts have been over populated. The decades of forms and Paul Mitchell contest and now Wushu has attracted too many people with no desire to sacrifice to truly learn defensive/offensive methods. So from that standpoint, martial arts has become fragmented with fighters and non fighters. With many more non fighters.

    Now for fighters, there are those that want to punch, kick and punch, kick and punch and throw, and kick and punch and throw and fight on the ground. None are right and none are wrong but some are more comprehensive than others..... fighting forums allowing more positions and technique are more comprehensive.

    If the original question was, should Kung Fu allow other styles to compete..... It should be flipped. Kung Fu needs to go out, not invite others in. San Shou is a great platform but it should be a stepping stone to MMA if TCMA ever wants to integrate with all the other styles that can perform there.

    Saying it's not ones cup of tea is a cop out..... one trains for 10 years and opens a school and teaches others martial arts but has never been punched in the nose because it "wasn't their cup of tea?"

    I say this collectively, not individually. There will always be people too busy, not physically equipped or mentally equipped to train for and to participate in combat sports.... own your state of being and accept it. Don't alter reality to a state where there's masters of martial arts who have zero combat experience.

    Don't want to fight? Fine. But can you see the ridiculousness of these people professing the need for hours of form as part of their combat training but never strap on gloves? Its not much different to say "ground fighting is gay" and never learn to own the situation.

    In this instance, it appears TCMA is asking for a double standard because it's not producing a sustainable number of stylists to participate in MMA.

    How many posters in this thread alone have even competed in sanctioned San Shou or kick boxing?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    Ray, how bout if they added a 30 second rule for ground work to it? After the time comes up unless a sub has been applied they stand them up.
    Better. But you're still not forcing people to solve the problem they face.... I don't like it when they stand people back up in the UFC. I also don't like rounds.

    This is 100% for the fans sitting on their ass. If you work someone well and have them in side control.... just holding that position is an advantage. You're forcing them to carry your weight. You're shouldering their head into the floor. You're constantly making them expend energy just to prevent a worse situation.... eventually their cardio or structure gives.

    Let the people fight and let the fight go where they take it then you don't have to worry about ifs and buts.
    Last edited by Ray Pina; 10-20-2011 at 08:28 AM.

  5. #65
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    I agee ray but most people dont want to pay to watch that. I love ground work myself i could watch a whole match that goes entirely to the ground. The people whom find that boring do nnot understand the small intracies involved in developing that ground work.

    People want fast paced action. People who sit on their ass and yell they could beat anyones ass in the cage. They are the arm chair warriors that pay the bills.

    But we wane away from the topic. I think that if san shou would add that rule it would add another element and be more inclusive for other styles participating.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    I honestly don't see a double standard it letting everyone do what they want. By negating an entire range of fighting, ground fighting, you're dumbing down the forum instead of forcing advancement.
    You still don't what I'm saying. BJJ purists who don't train striking fall under the same category.

    I think Cung Le is a great fighter and respect him tremendously. I think he gets respect from other fighters simply because he has proven himself. It's unfortunate he gets dragged into the middle of these discussions.

    With that said, Cung Lee was a god of San Shou, he has not risen to that level of MMA. Michael Jordan was amazing in basketball, didn't do much in baseball. The credit is where credit is due.
    How is using an example of a succesful San Shou fighter who transitioned to MMA successfully "dragging him into it". You wanted proof of San Shou fighters in MMA, Cung is the most prominent one.

    You are preaching to the choir.

    First and foremost, I would say martial arts have been over populated. The decades of forms and Paul Mitchell contest and now Wushu has attracted too many people with no desire to sacrifice to truly learn defensive/offensive methods. So from that standpoint, martial arts has become fragmented with fighters and non fighters. With many more non fighters.

    Now for fighters, there are those that want to punch, kick and punch, kick and punch and throw, and kick and punch and throw and fight on the ground. None are right and none are wrong but some are more comprehensive than others..... fighting forums allowing more positions and technique are more comprehensive.

    If the original question was, should Kung Fu allow other styles to compete..... It should be flipped. Kung Fu needs to go out, not invite others in. San Shou is a great platform but it should be a stepping stone to MMA if TCMA ever wants to integrate with all the other styles that can perform there.

    Saying it's not ones cup of tea is a cop out..... one trains for 10 years and opens a school and teaches others martial arts but has never been punched in the nose because it "wasn't their cup of tea?"

    I say this collectively, not individually. There will always be people too busy, not physically equipped or mentally equipped to train for and to participate in combat sports.... own your state of being and accept it. Don't alter reality to a state where there's masters of martial arts who have zero combat experience.

    Don't want to fight? Fine. But can you see the ridiculousness of these people professing the need for hours of form as part of their combat training but never strap on gloves? Its not much different to say "ground fighting is gay" and never learn to own the situation.

    In this instance, it appears TCMA is asking for a double standard because it's not producing a sustainable number of stylists to participate in MMA.

    How many posters in this thread alone have even competed in sanctioned San Shou or kick boxing?
    Ray, I really don't know what to say about the tangent here other than form fairies will be that and Kung Fu fighters will be that. I don't argue that there is a lot of crap that makes Kung Fu look bad but the discussion at hand was actually AGAINST CMA organizations that did not let others compete in their venue because of fear or stubborness, when in fact that would actually gain more exposure for San Shou and in turn Kung Fu. Also, guys who fight in MMA are MMA fighters, period. Do you see any pure boxers, (James Toney did real well), Muay Thai, Karate, or whatever other example you used. All MMA competitors are mixed martial artists.

    I don't completely disagree with you and in fact there are many thing you say I agree with, but this is not one of them. Kung Fu owes nothing to MMA and vice versa.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato

  7. #67
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    BJJ purists who don't train striking aren't exactly in the same boat because they have developed real skills against full resistance. Growing up, one of the best fighters I knew was the local H.S. wrestling captain.... not surprisingly, when he had guys tied up on the ground he didn't need detailed instruction on how to smash them. He was comfortable fighting and developed strong muscles for specific tasks as well as balance, coordination, etc. The difference is resistance.

    However, I will ceed to you that there are little crawl-up-into-a-ball or hold turtle types (usually those with less than 2.5 years experience) who will snicker or whine over the occasional errant elbow or knee that grazes them..... these guys will improve and learn to deal with it or they will drop the sport. At the most the coach will cater to them by asking people rolling with them to tone it down. But the entire structure of training doesn't change because little Johnny doesn't like to pay rough.

    And you are right, Kung Fu owes nothing to MMA or anything else. In fact, there is no "Kung Fu." It's martial arts. Every martial artist, by the nature of what it means to forge oneself as a martial artist, owes it to themselves to train beyond their capabilities. To constantly set far reaching goals, surpass them and continue on.

    You learn important lessons going the form route: that dedicated practice to a particular subject will yield positive results. You learn that and a whole other set of deep, internalized lessons about yourself, human nature, will, the maintenance of the body as a machine pursuing what I believe is the goal of martial arts: proficiency at violent opposition.

    It's true that by nature, MMAers practice several arts. Personally, I break it down to grappling and striking. I have coaches that train boxing and kick boxing. I have a coach for BJJ and wrestling. I maintain things I learned elsewhere that are of value to me and train them when I have the privilege of a student.

    As someone who has been on both the teaching and learning side of martial arts and "Kung Fu" though, it strikes me as odd that more TCMA practitioners don't concern themselves with: why hasn't TCMA been incorporated into MMA like most every other style and Why aren't more TCMAers successfully incorporating other styles and competing in MMA?

    The answer I came up with is that fighters aren't attracted to TCMA. And those that were and wish to fight competitively will ultimately be drawn to MMA.

    Realistically, all martial systems are MMA to begin with. It's just where they decided to put their focus. Now the focus has gone back to combat and certain basic skills have become obviously mandatory:

    smooth and crisp but heavy striking
    Someone who can combine kicks and punches has an advantage over a pure puncher
    Understanding of the clinch game (under hooks, over hooks)
    Takedowns (throws, picks, sweeps, etc) and the defense to them
    Ground game
    set ups
    angles
    level changes
    command of space

    All of these need to be trained with resistance at some point. It's always been brought up that not everyone wants to fight. But in every boxing gym I was at, the goal was to get you to the ring from day one. Whether you go compete or not is up to you, but you train the same way as everyone else. You're doing your sparring in the ring.

    Where I train BJJ, everyone competes. EVERYONE.

    I don't know of any 10 year boxers or BJJ who haven't competed. If you're not down to play rough in those games you don't last.... TCMA has created a panzy loop hole. Where you can be a master because you twirl a baton. This is the problem that suffers TCMA. And its why people get so in a tizzy here. Because in there heart they know its true.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
    TCMA has created a panzy loop hole. Where you can be a master because you twirl a baton. This is the problem that suffers TCMA.
    lol funny but also true in many instances.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    lol funny but also true in many instances.
    In my view the problem in too many TMA is the reliance on "what was before" as opposed to "what is now".
    Too much " a master of our system did this" or "my teacher can do this" or crap liek that and not enough on what "YOU" can do.
    Too much anecdotal stories of years gone by and not enough doing RIGHT NOW.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #70
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    I would also say that TCMA tournaments promote too much on forms competitions and not enough fighting competitions. I honestly think form competition is the worst.

    Think about this, you go out and perform a form and try to impress the judges, who often times may be from another system and don't even know the form. Instead of showing strong technique, good stance work and good transition it turns into who can do the most carthwheel and spinning wheel kicks.

    TCMA who promote more San Shou and Shuai Jiao and less forms would be a big improvement. The other day I emailed the ICMA because I saw they now have a tournament in Pittsburgh which is close to me. But after checking the results from the previous year it said nothing about San Shou or Shuai Jiao, even though it list these events on the website http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/

    I just wish San Shou and Shuai Jiao were the emphasis and not the back burner for these kind of tournaments.
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato

  11. #71
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    In my view the problem in too many TMA is the reliance on "what was before" as opposed to "what is now".
    Too much " a master of our system did this" or "my teacher can do this" or crap liek that and not enough on what "YOU" can do.
    Too much anecdotal stories of years gone by and not enough doing RIGHT NOW.
    you have to venture outside your comfort circle to gain that. Taking what you learned or saw and trying it yourself even though it's awkward and hard. Testing what you have is probably the biggest lesson you can learn. Not worrying about what someone else is doing but doing what you are doing.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  12. #72
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    On this thread we have the following arguments and points being raised,
    1) MMA favours grapplers,
    2) MMA favours big strong athletes and not skilled fighters, there’s no skill
    And my personal favourite the street arguments
    3a) try subbing someone in a street fight and watch his mates kick your back in,
    3b) watch how you get sliced up from all the glass on the ground
    3c) don’t grapple multiple opponents stick and move baby that the way to go
    Not to mention
    4) I would like MMA but the fighters show no respect argument, TCMA guys are much more respectful


    Is it me or is it ground hog day over and over in this forum?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    On this thread we have the following arguments and points being raised,
    1) MMA favours grapplers,
    2) MMA favours big strong athletes and not skilled fighters, there’s no skill
    And my personal favourite the street arguments
    3a) try subbing someone in a street fight and watch his mates kick your back in,
    3b) watch how you get sliced up from all the glass on the ground
    3c) don’t grapple multiple opponents stick and move baby that the way to go
    Not to mention
    4) I would like MMA but the fighters show no respect argument, TCMA guys are much more respectful


    Is it me or is it ground hog day over and over in this forum?
    "The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero projects his fear onto his opponent while the coward runs. 'Fear'. It's the same thing, but it's what you do with it that matters". -Cus D'Amato

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post

    Is it me or is it ground hog day over and over in this forum?
    Sure feels like it... every discussion ends in the same argument. Funny, this was no different back in the 70s, 80s, 90s... whatever was popular paled in comparison to what was the "it" thing to practice. Can't wait until the next movement... boxing-kickboxing-bjj-high wire-***** swinging-blind folded full contact fighting 50 feet in the air
    Tom
    Integrated Kung Fu Academy
    Kung Fu - Kickboxing - MMA -Self Defense
    Media, PA -Delaware County

  15. #75
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    I remember that day when I spent most of it naked with two sexy female co-eds and did things that are illegal in most southern states, why can't I have that day over and over again?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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