Wing Chun Upper Cut and Hooks?

[Fa Xing]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

Wow, that's completely baseless, I've knocked down people with my right hook (fighting in southpaw). From my experience, uppercuts are a lot harder to get power than hooks. There's a lot of more hip rotation in a hook than an uppercut.

[k gledhill]

Primarily we dont use hooks and uppercuts or any striking that makes us overturn and unable to make an instant new attack.
Iow we dont lose the ability to make an attack for the same reasons you will give me one if you over swing past my positions.
We use opponents axis turns from making this sort of attack against them.
Sadly many use blocks that prevent this and maintain incorrect tactical ideas placing themselves front and center to an opponent throwing just this attack... if you stand in front of a guy throwing hooks, uppercuts , etc...and stay there trying to block and hit, your setting yourself up for a takedown and in terms of a water fight you might block some but you will get wet in fights adopting this method. Another aspect of bad VT is using blocks to prevent this natural mistake opponents can make. thus compounding the mistakes against you because your 'preventing' it from happening....let them turn too much.

VT tries to use the opponents mistakes against them, like over swinging , overturning and countering them or preventing them re-facing again.
Turning the opponent on their axis continuously is possible using correct ideas.

In BG we only reface with a centered elbows, recovering elbows, iow we reface to attack with elbow ideas again not ginger fist , more conceptual stuff....blah blah

Im not saying anything against hooks and uppercuts , just why Ving Tsun doesnt adopt them.
Also we use bare hands that allow full force open palm strikes on heads that uppercuts do so they hit the face /jaw rather than break hands on downward defensive skulls. Plus the boxing combos etc...and bobbing and weaving allow this way with gloves, etc...

theres more but I have to train !

[mjw]

We do have both in our forms and I do quite a few uppercuts but not so many hooks are thrown (probablly because of WC principles) unless we are really tied up. However wo do defend against them a lot......

[Liddel]

How hard will it be to include both "hook punch" and "upper cut" into your training? Why should you care about whether it was in your system or not? As long as you know how to use it, that should all you care about. You are the master and styles are your slaves. It's you that's more important.

This is the smartest thing said in this thread IMO.

While you don't want to discard the principals of your core art, just because you add something else doesn't mean it adversely effects your VT. And you can take elements that are useful to VT IME.

A good precedent in VT would be the weapons. Most weapons training in my teachers day was taught last. So that you were at a level where learning the pole didn't totally wreck your Chi Sau because of the force needed and the BJD didn't wreck your horse...

I have and use the CK action as an uppercut. It does work well given i've knocked down sparring partners. As part of My teachers and therefore my own VT - who's to tell me it isn't VT ?

Perhaps people read into the term 'HOOK' or 'UPPERCUT' to much. My VT uppercut only has similarities to the mechanics of a boxing uppercut. They are not the same for obvious reasons.

Primarily we dont use hooks and uppercuts or any striking that makes us overturn and unable to make an instant new attack.

A hook doesn't fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place.

Iow we dont lose the ability to make an attack for the same reasons you will give me one if you over swing past my positions.

Thats why those that don't know how to recover using VT 'recovery tools' should wait to branch out into other techniques. Moreover people that are aware can circumvent that negative aspect.

Spinning back kick is a perfect example of your theory. I hate them and as a VT fighter would never advocate them. But having been on the sharp end of one and seeing examples of top competitors - its clear to me that despite my own opinion.. there is a time and a place where all the negatives are moot.

Dont get boxed in, use what works. Sifu wont be fighting for you will he ?

[k gledhill]

This is the smartest thing said in this thread IMO.

While you don't want to discard the principals of your core art, just because you add something else doesn't mean it adversely effects your VT. And you can take elements that are useful to VT IME.

A good precedent in VT would be the weapons. Most weapons training in my teachers day was taught last. So that you were at a level where learning the pole didn't totally wreck your Chi Sau because of the force needed and the BJD didn't wreck your horse...

I have and use the CK action as an uppercut. It does work well given i've knocked down sparring partners. As part of My teachers and therefore my own VT - who's to tell me it isn't VT ?

Perhaps people read into the term 'HOOK' or 'UPPERCUT' to much. My VT uppercut only has similarities to the mechanics of a boxing uppercut. They are not the same for obvious reasons.



A hook doesn't fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place.



Thats why those that don't know how to recover using VT 'recovery tools' should wait to branch out into other techniques. Moreover people that are aware can circumvent that negative aspect.

Spinning back kick is a perfect example of your theory. I hate them and as a VT fighter would never advocate them. But having been on the sharp end of one and seeing examples of top competitors - its clear to me that despite my own opinion.. there is a time and a place where all the negatives are moot.

Dont get boxed in, use what works. Sifu wont be fighting for you will he ?

A hook doesn't fall into this category IMO unless you are a newbie. and there are heaps of examples out there that show instant attacks are not only possible but common place.

You sound like you're in the same mind set as many who dont understand the reasons for not using uppercuts and hooks. The other reasons are the elbows and their relationship to VT specific ways of hitting. We cant use hook elbows or lifting upper cut elbows as we use VT strikes..but you knew that right

As for the quote above , its a combination effect of rotation on the axis line, regardless of 'precision' you throwing curves and you will make turning lines of force, the more force guys throw the more they turn and have to recover....Its also easy to read the next hit coming ...

Your sarcasm only highlights your ignorance of VT

try this, have a guy hit a focus pad hard with a hook , as he hits the pad take the pad away and see what happens when he misses his intended impact spot...does he keep going ? stop dead ? over turn a little more than he thought...
Then ask him to step with bodyweight and hook and repeat, its harder to control the body weight ...if you hold the pad up there for him to hit he wont over swing ; )

[Yoshiyahu]

Glad to see people getting along and not griping about My WC is better than your VT....


Ne way. Very interesting discussion thus far...

I agree with the following post!

1.Couch
2.Jesper
3.Kevin
4.joy chaudhuri
5.YouKnowWho
6.Fa Xing
7.Liddel
8.mjw


I respect the post made by Graham, k gledhill's,
k gledhill.



In any case let me share how my WC uses the Hook and Upper cut...My Sifu never called the upper fist motion a upper cut. I say upper cut because of the direction of fist. Its going up like tok sau or tie sau. Only with a fist. The energy of course is quite different than a boxing uppercut and frankly doesn't have the power a boxing uppercut would have with out you pulling or jerking the opponent in a downward motion while your fist raises. But you can add power,Jing and Force to the upper cut. Which at the very least "you can split the lip".

That is my synopsis on the uppercut or as Sifu would say "Split the Lip"

The infamous "HOOK"! Again the energy is different. A Boxing Hook does have a lot more overall body power mechanics. Partly because you train it on a heavy bag. But also because of the movement. But With my Wing Chun we don't do a blind hook or unattached hooked. In Bil Gee, the Hook is executed after pulling your opponent into it. So you turn your body or torso while pulling your opponent off his center as he steps or stumbles forward due to loss of structure you regain the center by hooking around with a fist to his face. The energy is different because you have hip or torso rotation accompanied with pulling your opponent into the punch aka hook.

[k gledhill]

Glad to see people getting along and not griping about My WC is better than your VT....


Ne way. Very interesting discussion thus far...

I agree with the following post!

1.Couch
2.Jesper
3.Kevin
4.joy chaudhuri
5.YouKnowWho
6.Fa Xing
7.Liddel
8.mjw


I respect the post made by Graham, k gledhill's,
k gledhill.



In any case let me share how my WC uses the Hook and Upper cut...My Sifu never called the upper fist motion a upper cut. I say upper cut because of the direction of fist. Its going up like tok sau or tie sau. Only with a fist. The energy of course is quite different than a boxing uppercut and frankly doesn't have the power a boxing uppercut would have with out you pulling or jerking the opponent in a downward motion while your fist raises. But you can add power,Jing and Force to the upper cut. Which at the very least "you can split the lip".

That is my synopsis on the uppercut or as Sifu would say "Split the Lip"

The infamous "HOOK"! Again the energy is different. A Boxing Hook does have a lot more overall body power mechanics. Partly because you train it on a heavy bag. But also because of the movement. But With my Wing Chun we don't do a blind hook or unattached hooked. In Bil Gee, the Hook is executed after pulling your opponent into it. So you turn your body or torso while pulling your opponent off his center as he steps or stumbles forward due to loss of structure you regain the center by hooking around with a fist to his face. The energy is different because you have hip or torso rotation accompanied with pulling your opponent into the punch aka hook.

This pulling onto yourself and hitting is also wrong thinking, If you pulla wrestler towards you he will like you more...
We pull to TURN guys away from ourslves on thier axis lines, iow we take an arm that tactically will lead them 90 deg facing to our left or right so the only arm they can hit with is 180 deg away from us, ideally.
We dont do kata, so bil gee isnt about we do this then that , its intentionally NOT kata for this concept driven thinking, we decide the actions based on the reality before us using lat sao chet chung , etc...
If you stop my fist hitting you with a rigid extended lever, I simply aim that arm/lever 90 deg away from me sharply, NOT towards me ..a common mistake many 'so-called' masters make

We strike in a unique fashion that requires a lot of conditioning to achieve, adding a hook or an uppercut isnt going to help this goal. In fact our whole repertoire is done in forms , drilling, chi-sao hitting chests etc...so we DONT RAISE ELBOWS

Im sorry if I sound arrogant and telling you you CANT ....but if you dont understand the VT idea you might as well adopt every punch being thrown by all other styles, why not ? use no limit as limit be everything and all yeah thats why we evolved into sophisticated realization of Ving Tsun fighting.

Ive seen guys win fights in nightclub foyers doing wind mill swings back and forth why not call that VT windmill ,

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what your saying an respectfully disagree with you!

First off to clarify with you. I agree with what your saying about pulling a wrestler into you. No with the hook you don't pull him into your center. But away from your center. You pull him so he is somewhat flanked an your on his blind side. An as you disengage you re-established your center by hooking the punch into his face. I would simply have to either spar with you or freestyle chi sau with you to show you what i mean. Free Sparring is the best way. I am not saying in WC I would be attempting a hook fifty percent of the time. No that technique i rarely use. But I know its there in case a situation rises where i can utilize it. But i respect your comment in how you do things. There is a lot of knowledge in what you say. But my disagreement falls with the application of what I am trying to convey. Unless you had it done to you or done it to someone else you won't quite understand what I mean!!! But its all good.


As for wrestlers. There are certain techniques i use more so on wrestlers and others I use on boxers and totally different techniques i use for kickers. Everyone's Martial Art is different. All have strengths and weaknesses. Even Wing Chun!

This pulling onto yourself and hitting is also wrong thinking, If you pulla wrestler towards you he will like you more...
We pull to TURN guys away from ourslves on thier axis lines, iow we take an arm that tactically will lead them 90 deg facing to our left or right so the only arm they can hit with is 180 deg away from us, ideally.
We dont do kata, so bil gee isnt about we do this then that , its intentionally NOT kata for this concept driven thinking, we decide the actions based on the reality before us using lat sao chet chung , etc...
If you stop my fist hitting you with a rigid extended lever, I simply aim that arm/lever 90 deg away from me sharply, NOT towards me ..a common mistake many 'so-called' masters make

We strike in a unique fashion that requires a lot of conditioning to achieve, adding a hook or an uppercut isnt going to help this goal. In fact our whole repertoire is done in forms , drilling, chi-sao hitting chests etc...so we DONT RAISE ELBOWS

Im sorry if I sound arrogant and telling you you CANT ....but if you dont understand the VT idea you might as well adopt every punch being thrown by all other styles, why not ? use no limit as limit be everything and all yeah thats why we evolved into sophisticated realization of Ving Tsun fighting.

Ive seen guys win fights in nightclub foyers doing wind mill swings back and forth why not call that VT windmill ,

[YouKnowWho]

try this, have a guy hit a focus pad hard with a hook , as he hits the pad take the pad away and see what happens when he misses his intended impact spot...does he keep going ? stop dead ? over turn a little more than he thought...
Then ask him to step with bodyweight and hook and repeat, its harder to control the body weight ...if you hold the pad up there for him to hit he wont over swing ; )

There is a combo move after the "hook punch" and that is the "turn back/hook kick". You will need your body rotation momentum to execute your "turn back/hook kick".

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...1092556new.gif

The 45 degree downward hook punch is the best counter to be used to against straight punch. It will knock your opponent's arm down and along with his body. When you throw a hook punch, if you use the sharp edge of your fore-arm to hit on the back of your opponent's head, it can be a effective "finish" move. Old saying said, "3 punches on your opponent's face cannot compare with one punch on the back of his head" (This is why hitting on the back of your opponent's head is not allowed in boxing).

If you don't train hook punch, you will miss a very useful tool.

[Phil Redmond]

I do not use hooks at all. Uppercuts can be delivered with considerable power, but a hook is a shortened weapon that does not have the same power. Sure, you can hit pretty hard with a hook, but it requires a curved arm coming in a circle with no body behind it. I never used it. Uppercut is something that can be useful, and it can be a knockout punch, but I simpy can not apply the same power in a hook.

A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.

[Yoshiyahu]

There is a combo move after the "hook punch" and that is the "turn back/hook kick". You will need your body rotation momentum to execute your "turn back/hook kick".

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...1092556new.gif

The 45 degree downward hook punch is the best counter to be used to against straight punch. It will knock your opponent's arm down and along with his body. When you throw a hook punch, if you use the sharp edge of your fore-arm to hit on the back of your opponent's head, it can be a effective "finish" move. Old saying said, "3 punches on your opponent's face cannot compare with one punch on the back of his head" (This is why hitting on the back of your opponent's head is not allowed in boxing).

If you don't train hook punch, you will miss a very useful tool.

thanks for your post...I don't understand why some people are so closed minded!

A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.

So true...But when you throw a hook into a heavy bag you feel the power generation an just know you got more body behind it than an upper cut which is rising force oppose to swinging force with your body behind it. Horizontal Punches typically have more power than the verticals ones. Their are ways to train boxing upper cuts outside of focus mitts. Like there is uppercut bag as well. I am so glad you shared this information.

[YouKnowWho]

A hook is waaaaaay more powerful than an uppercut. People who fight know this.

If you use "stealing step" and spin your body, you can use your hook punch to knock your opponent from a vertical posture into a horizontal posture, and then drop to the ground. I didn't know this was possible until oneday I saw it happened by my own eyes.

If your opponent attacks you in combat speed and you don't have time to do anything, you can just spin your body out of the attacking path and throw your 45 degree downward hook punch out, your problem may be solved.

The hook punch can also be used to set up an "underhook" if you are interested in the grappling game.

It can be a very useful tool in your toolbox and that's for sure.

[k gledhill]

Ving Tsun has no hooks or uppercuts carry on !

[Graham H]

The best thing so far is when somebody said how can you be so close minded when they are advocating an action that shouldn't even be in the system. Hooks and uppercuts. Just face it dudes. Your teacher or teachers teachers put those in there because they knew no better. If hooks and uppercuts work for you in your lineage then that's great. If you are knocking guys out with them then even better but they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system. No need for me to say anymore than what I or Kevin has said. Kick boxing style wing chun with sticky arms is the norm nowadays. No big deal.

Gh

[YouKnowWho]

they are not part of the ving Tsun idea! They contradict too many other ideas in the system.

This is a very interest point. What will you do when certain skills contradict to your system principles?