Ginger Fist & Phoenix Eye

[MOSHE]

some have been taught to build their wing chun by taking the movements of the taos and by trying to make it efficient with the modern training methods of the west ,kick boxing ,fitness and so ,,,

some have been taught by working on the rules which are the soul of the system till the system by himself bring to them all what they need


so there is two conceptions

two worlds

[wingchunIan]

Moshe says:
body is not in concrete and push up is perhaps the worst exercice that a wc guy can do
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Agree. Developing local musculature is a poor way to go for developing wc skills(Joy )
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wingchunIan saysnsequences of each incorrect formation almost made me cry.
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Saddening.A dialog of the deaf between some who need to learn wing chun and some who laugh at wing chun because they have seen some bad wing chun posting on this forum and on youtube. Yoshiyahu's compulsive posting
makes him a lost leader of of the first group.Responding to his posts adds to the mess.(Joy)

PS-Y's "student" may develop a strong knuckle for knuckle heads but it "ain't" the phoenix eye fist
(joy)
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So as a quoted party to the dialogue which camp are you placing me in then Joy?

[Vajramusti]

some have been taught to build their wing chun by taking the movements of the taos and by trying to make it efficient with the modern training methods of the west ,kick boxing ,fitness and so ,,,

some have been taught by working on the rules which are the soul of the system till the system by himself bring to them all what they need


so there is two conceptions

two worlds

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A good distinction Moshe.
I have no problem with the first world- have done some of those things myself.

But the second world is different- wing chun is quite unique and different from western martial sports and even other nan kuen- hung ga, clf, southern mantis, white crane(for the most part),
bak mei etc.

Wing chun is not the only way to fight.There are many approaches to fighting and self defense.
But distinctions can help with understanding.

Wing chun is often counter intuitive-but quite natural when pre conceptions are shaved off.
The foundation of the the wing chun phoenix eye is there in the slt but good development takes place at the biu jee level with the development of all the major axis...otherwise it can be easily countered... by a simple but efficient pak for instance.

[wingchunIan]

Hahaha, why not, just for the fun of it. Old clip.

The aim is to train alignment, balance, consolidation. Not for the purpose of hardening knuckles. And don't damage those sentivitve fingers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnLFY...0&feature=plcp

Not something I do personally but at least in this clip the weight is distributed through the structure being worked and the wrist is aligned, which is the point I was making about the earlier similar clip posted by Yoshi.

[MOSHE]

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A good distinction

I will even add that this forum is a good illustration of what happened at the Babel tower , if you the story

[imperialtaichi]

some have been taught to build their wing chun by taking the movements of the taos and by trying to make it efficient with the modern training methods of the west ,kick boxing ,fitness and so ,,,

some have been taught by working on the rules which are the soul of the system till the system by himself bring to them all what they need


so there is two conceptions

two worlds

In my view, there is only one world; and it belongs to the person still standing, not the ones lying on the ground.

In a fight, all h3ll breaks lose, the complex techniques you practice breaks down. The only thing that carries you through are the correct habits you formed during training, your strategies and your attributes.

Your WC is your tool. You master it, not enslaved by rules and dogma. Be alive and active on how you can maximize it's true nature, not bound by just set movements.

Btw, I've been in TST's flat a number of years ago. I have seen his training equipments. His things, I don't have the authority to discuss it.

[GlennR]

I will even add that this forum is a good illustration of what happened at the Babel tower , if you the story

Go punch a plank

[GlennR]

In my view, there is only one world; and it belongs to the person still standing, not the ones lying on the ground.

In a fight, all h3ll breaks lose, the complex techniques you practice breaks down. The only thing that carries you through are the correct habits you formed during training, your strategies and your attributes.

Your WC is your tool. You master it, not enslaved by rules and dogma. Be alive and active on how you can maximize it's true nature, not bound by just set movements.

Btw, I've been in TST's flat a number of years ago. I have seen his training equipments. His things, I don't have the authority to discuss it.

Youre so much nicer than me John

[imperialtaichi]

Not something I do personally but at least in this clip the weight is distributed through the structure being worked and the wrist is aligned, which is the point I was making about the earlier similar clip posted by Yoshi.

Thanks WCI. I agree, it may not suit everyone's training method. It's personal. Fair enough.

But the "experts" often like to criticize persons who does things differently to them, without understanding what is going on. Something we are all guilty of from time to time.

[Vajramusti]

Go punch a plank

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

[GlennR]

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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And so does condascending tones from our know it all friend. I guess we're even for now so ill leave him alone

John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

From my point of view, you suggested push ups only work isolated muscles and i(and a couple of others) said that its an excellent all round body exercise.... i never actually said it would help your WC power, but it certainly wont hinder it IMO.

Regarding your question, looking at all the guys you mentioned im not sure if any of them did push ups, they were probably of the belief that it would slow them down which has been proven to be nonsense

[Vajramusti]

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And so does condascending tones from our know it all friend. I guess we're even for now so ill leave him alone



From my point of view, you suggested push ups only work isolated muscles and i(and a couple of others) said that its an excellent all round body exercise.... i never actually said it would help your WC power, but it certainly wont hinder it IMO.

((May not hinder Glenn-depends on what the rest of the training is IMO))joy

Regarding your question, looking at all the guys you mentioned im not sure if any of them did push ups, they were probably of the belief that it would slow them down which has been proven to be nonsense

((A possible communication issue. Not necessarily an issue of speed. There are diverse views on the dynamics of a good wing chun punch. English is not Moshe's first language..by the tower of babel metaphor he may be referring to diversity. His plank punching was not bad-showed some short power IMO.In forum posts we often prematurely jump to conclusions on tone. intent, condescension, expertise etc Partly, the nature of the medium. The printed word medium is going away but is better and discussion over tea or coffee or a good beer between good faith discussants even more so. Physicists, chemists, philosophers with serious differences in perspectives often do that. But in internet forum discussions we often miss the boat and remain at the starting gate.))Joy

[Kellen Bassette]

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

Don't know much about the history of these WC Sifus, but the Chinese military was doing push ups at least a century ago, and were training Sanda by the 20's, so I think it's a pretty safe assumption a lot of Kung Fu schools were also doing push ups.

I don't see why Wing Chun wouldn't have used them as well.

[GlennR]

((A possible communication issue. Not necessarily an issue of speed. There are diverse views on the dynamics of a good wing chun punch. English is not Moshe's first language..by the tower of babel metaphor he may be referring to diversity. His plank punching was not bad-showed some short power IMO.In forum posts we often prematurely jump to conclusions on tone. intent, condescension, expertise etc Partly, the nature of the medium. The printed word medium is going away but is better and discussion over tea or coffee or a good beer between good faith discussants even more so. Physicists, chemists, philosophers with serious differences in perspectives often do that. But in internet forum discussions we often miss the boat and remain at the starting gate.))Joy

Id love to be as understanding as you Joy but he's condescending.

Having said that, i didnt mind his demo either

[imperialtaichi]

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Glenn-ad hominem erodes discussion.
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John or anyone- a fair but limited question- does any one think that Leung Jan, Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, TST, WSL regularly used western style pushups for developing wing chun power?. Yes, No. dont know,
think so. dont think so

The great masters in history would use whatever means to achieve their goal, based in what is available and the scientific concepts of the time.

My KL22 teacher once said, "don't just copy what I do. If you just photocopy your teacher, every generation there will be degradations, just like a photocopy. Take what I give you and make it better."

If Leung Jan had the Internet, and the latest research on biomechanics and physiology, what would he do?