Ginger Fist & Phoenix Eye

[Eric_H]

My 2cents, whatever they're worth.

Specialized tools like this can be employed, but their employment is far more limited and in this case the consequences of using them are pretty harsh. You phoenix eye fist someone in the eye - they're not likely to be coming back for more. Chances are you will burst the eye, and in the old days that was usually the end for your opponent. If the shock didn't kill him, the likely infection probably would.

IMO specialized fist employment (to reduce risk of damaging your own weapons) typically comes after a certain degree of control is gained - you most likely wouldn't use them in free striking engagement.

In regards as to what phoenix eyes do to the ribs, it's more than just jacking one intercostal - they can break ribs and sublux others simultaneously if the right amount of torque is applied (I had a sihing who did this to someone is a self defense situation) basically shutting down the ability of the side of the body to respond in a normal matter. Someone who has some decent muscle mass in the rib area can shrug off a solid punch - there's no shrugging the phoenix eye off, it's too sharp.

[imperialtaichi]

The thing is this, if you are constantly looking for a couple of specific spots to strike them in a specific way while doing some light sparring with your partner, you may very well be able to pull it off. However, things change a lot with speed. Think non-compliant full contact with a skilled opponent. You won't have the luxury to see a small spot, process with your brain that you need to do a "Phoenix fist" or "Buffalo Eyebrow" or whatever, send the signal to your limb, and land it successfully on that small spot while the other guy is moving quickly and unpredictively trying to take your head off. Waaaay too much complication for when what you really need is a set of simple tools that won't go out the window under such circumstances. Ving Tsun is about efficient simplification, not the opposite.

Beyond feasibility of such strikes in realistic scenarios, you are preoccupying your mind with chasing a specific situation out of the millions that can occur (think position, distance, speed, etc.). In a sense you are chasing hands instead of simply going after the centerline. It is preferrable to remain flexible to continuously adapt to what is going on and taking all chances offered with whatever tool was there to take them. A preoccupied mind cannot do this under big pressure.

Emil

Targeting is instinctive, adaptive and requires very little conscious effort.

An experienced butcher can cut up a cow with very little conscious effort. A trainee will need to think where to cut, what angle and using which knives.

The human body is full of targets ready for us to dissect. Beginners may need to think, and may be obsessed with just a few unrealistic points. Experience fighters dissects the opponent freely.

[Buddha_Fist]

Targeting is instinctive, adaptive and requires very little conscious effort.

An experienced butcher can cut up a cow with very little conscious effort. A trainee will need to think where to cut, what angle and using which knives.

The human body is full of targets ready for us to dissect. Beginners may need to think, and may be obsessed with just a few unrealistic points. Experience fighters dissects the opponent freely.

Fantasy-Fu!

[imperialtaichi]

Fantasy-Fu!

Well, if you are happy with what you are doing, good luck. Everyone has a choice.

[wingchunIan]

Fantasy-Fu!

why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. I personally don't practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don't, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn't make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I'm therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.

[k gledhill]

I tried to eye jab a guy in a barfight once while doing bouncing work. A fight broke out between 6-7 guys and 3 security. Each security guy became isolated as they where attacked by a gang of trouble makers in there late 20-early 30's . I ended up backing up facing 3 at once.....
The guy and 2 others where coming at me in a line down a narrow channel between a wall to my left and to my right bar tables packed with drinking punters, packed with people so there where limited options for space, good for me ... they all came shoulder to shoulder so there was no 'first come first served...' .
I tried to eye jab the guy to the right to fend him off and missed the first time then did a inch shot again and hit him 'somewhere', enough so he turned his head away. I then pivoted as Bil Gee from an extended right arm and recovered my elbow and punched the guy to the far left who had then stepped forwards to hit me....I hit him solid on the jaw and he went down. The guy in the center started to yell for me to leave him alone, iow dont hit him again.
Long story short, the eye shot is so small and exact, its better to just jab a guy in the face as a messer, what jabs do without commitment to further entry due to multiple opponents. IF you hit the eye great, but you cant go searching for it, as the saying goes cause you'll never find it when you need it, like a cab in the rain.In class you can do it all day...when you dont need a cab there's 100's

3 on 1 against skinny me they didnt know I knew VT so came wide open...no 1 cm

[k gledhill]

why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view. I personally don't practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don't, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn't make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I'm therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.

Im not closing my mind to options, but the mechanics of a phoenix eye just seem the complete opposite to the mindless ways we train to execute in fights. Just hitting with sufficient force in our ways takes a lot of focus...then asking a guy in lightning speeds to change and think ...oh I will hit the temple next time he comes at me with a phoenix knuckle ....can you see my point ?

Sure guys will show isolated nerve shots and its all good but its in an environment of friends , no pressure to survive the moment without anytime to think.
Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear and you havent even had the fight yet

Nothing personal about the obtuse remark, I should have clarified myself .

[Buddha_Fist]

why resort to insults, just because someone offers a different view.

No insult - just my opinion about this kind of theories!

I personally don't practice the phoenix eye or ginger fist but to dismiss targetting is like saying that a seasoned pro boxer simply swings around aimlessly hoping to hit something. They don't, they pick their shots selecting the most appropriate punch for the target presented. Different scenario and tools but the same principle. Just because someone presents an idea thats different to our own doesn't make it invalid (equally neither am I going to run off and start practising ginger fist or phoenix eye fist).
As i was taught, Ip Man removed these techniques from his teaching during the late 1950s because there are other techniques that pose less risk of injury but allow striking of the same places, I'm therefore happy to not have them in what I practice.

No. There's a huge difference from what a boxer does to what is being advocated here: A boxer resorts to the same tool (his good old punch) no matter what angle, distance, position, or timing dealt with. He targets larger areas with the same tool and it will do damage no matter whether he got you anywhere on the head or anywhere on the body. He keeps it simple (Ving Tsun!) and does not have to think first about whether to cross his fingers in a certain way before striking, nor is he looking continuously for that small spot on the inside of your left forearm...

[CFT]

Arguing against the phoenix eye and ginger fists, other than the extra requirement of specialised conditioning, is illogical to me. If you train it, why would there be a problem in recognizing when to engage it when the opportunity presents itself?

Do you have a problem deciding when to use a palm instead of a punch?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I train the PE fist, I use it well and it works for me.

[Vajramusti]

Differing opinions without insulting other established POVs is ok with me.

If you know how to use the ginger fist and the phoenix eye with short power- they should not be used in bar fights and similar skirmishes. Good reasons why IM didn't teach them in the general public classes. Often people don't even know how to make a fist or a phoenix eye fist. And- you don't just focus on large potruding knuckle.the whole fist, the elbow and the arm and the body have their
unified roles.

joy chaudhuri

PS- Sanjuro had a nice vid on his phoenix eye- a while back

[k gledhill]

So where is ginger fist in slt, and phoenix eye...?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So where is ginger fist in slt, and phoenix eye...?

You're not suggesting that WC is only what is in its forms, are you?

[Vajramusti]

I train the PE fist, I use it well and it works for me.

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You had a great vid on your usage,

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

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You had a great vid on your usage,

joy

Thanks Joy,
I have had the pleasure of learning "force multipliers" from a few different perspectives and they ALL had their merits ( and cons of course).
Regardless of the principles of use one learns when introduced to them, how one ends up using them is based on how they are trained ( and forged) and used in sparring.
The PE fist in Hung Kuen is different from WC as WC is different from SPM.
Different doesn't mean better or worse, just different.
Speciality kungs are just that and as such, they need to be tailored to the individual WITHIN the context of their system.