Ginger Fist & Phoenix Eye

[EternalSpring]

You're right, they are represented in the Kuen Kuit, but why? Where does this hand structure originate and how do we actually drill it's use without killing our students??!!

I think both fists can be seen in other Chinese martial arts as well. The phoenix eye seems like an important tool in Southern Praying Mantis (although it'd probably be best if a practitioner could confirm this for us) and the ginger is present in Choy Lee fut. Not sure if this is true for all the families though.

As for how it's trained, I'd say through a lot of form/technique training, drills, and conditioning work. Similar to how we'd train energies like finger jabs or any technique that would cause too much damage if done the optimal way (attacking soft tissue, vital points) but not enough damage if just applied to any part of the body (ex: like finger jabbing a person in a knee).

That's my take on it, although I'm sure there are many differences in opinion as I've met others who actually even have different ways of forming fists such as the phoenix eye. The variations were mostly based around the placement of the thumb. For example, the way I train, the thumb is kept bent about 90 degrees at the middle joint (if that makes sense, sounds weird explaining it like that) behind the index finger while some people I've met had it so that the thumb was bent so that the tip of the thumb was tucked into the "pocket" formed on top of the index finger as a result of the way that it is held in the phoenix eye. This gives them a second striking point that is formed by the middle joint in the thumb sticking up (although both methods have more than 1 striking point from what I've learned). Now that i've typed this out i realize that it probably sounds strange. so i just took pictures of my own hand, sorry if it looks strange, never really took pictures of my fist in such a manner before lol.


How I train my phoenix eye:

How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:


Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

[Fa Xing]

How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:


Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

I've used this one when training, but as I have said before, I think there's too much of risk of damaging the knuckle.

That being said, it may just depend on conditioning because I can hit with a regular fist and not being injured where those who don't condition it at all.

[Vajramusti]

I think both fists can be seen in other Chinese martial arts as well. The phoenix eye seems like an important tool in Southern Praying Mantis (although it'd probably be best if a practitioner could confirm this for us) and the ginger is present in Choy Lee fut. Not sure if this is true for all the families though.

As for how it's trained, I'd say through a lot of form/technique training, drills, and conditioning work. Similar to how we'd train energies like finger jabs or any technique that would cause too much damage if done the optimal way (attacking soft tissue, vital points) but not enough damage if just applied to any part of the body (ex: like finger jabbing a person in a knee).

That's my take on it, although I'm sure there are many differences in opinion as I've met others who actually even have different ways of forming fists such as the phoenix eye. The variations were mostly based around the placement of the thumb. For example, the way I train, the thumb is kept bent about 90 degrees at the middle joint (if that makes sense, sounds weird explaining it like that) behind the index finger while some people I've met had it so that the thumb was bent so that the tip of the thumb was tucked into the "pocket" formed on top of the index finger as a result of the way that it is held in the phoenix eye. This gives them a second striking point that is formed by the middle joint in the thumb sticking up (although both methods have more than 1 striking point from what I've learned). Now that i've typed this out i realize that it probably sounds strange. so i just took pictures of my own hand, sorry if it looks strange, never really took pictures of my fist in such a manner before lol.


How I train my phoenix eye:

How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:


Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I'd say that it's all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.

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I do the phoenix eye but my formation is not the same as the two pics that are posted.

And the leopard fist and my wing chun ginger fist are not the same. the devil in the details.

joy chaudhuri

[EternalSpring]

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I do the phoenix eye but my formation is not the same as the two pics that are posted.

And the leopard fist and my wing chun ginger fist are not the same. the devil in the details.

joy chaudhuri

Nice, so that's even more variation out there (which is a good thing imo, more perspectives and energies to learn about)! TBH, im wondering if my phoenix eye is complete because while i train it like that, my sifu refers to it sometimes as the phoenix eye and sometimes as "leeng kuen (training fist)." I guess I'll find out over time if the way I do it is just a stage in the process of training it.

And yea, the way I learned ginger fist (at least as of now) is also different enough that I didn't even want to risk taking a picture of that one lol. Plus that fist is still fairly new to me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.

[Fa Xing]

The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

[EternalSpring]

The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.

Thanks, i was hoping someone who trained the fist in the second picture could elaborate a bit because I dont actually train that way and was just imitating what I was shown by friends. I never knew that they do it the same way in (tibetian?) Lama. I heard that they used parts of the thumb as a striking point even in other fists but this def gave me a way to relate/understand that better.

And thanks for the input on the striking point, i def didn't explain that well lol. I agree that there's more than the tip of the knuckle that's used. My understanding on it is def still nowhere near a high level but I do remember my sifu explaining how it's not just a hard stabbing motion using the bent index finger

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks, i was hoping someone who trained the fist in the second picture could elaborate a bit because I dont actually train that way and was just imitating what I was shown by friends. I never knew that they do it the same way in (tibetian?) Lama. I heard that they used parts of the thumb as a striking point even in other fists but this def gave me a way to relate/understand that better.

And thanks for the input on the striking point, i def didn't explain that well lol. I agree that there's more than the tip of the knuckle that's used. My understanding on it is def still nowhere near a high level but I do remember my sifu explaining how it's not just a hard stabbing motion using the bent index finger

Here you go, my view on the PE fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzmoaCTcXY

[EternalSpring]

Here you go, my view on the PE fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzmoaCTcXY

****, unfortunately I cant see it for some reason

on another note, i didn't know you could make youtube videos that wouldn't be listed and could only be seen if the link was given out, that's pretty cool

[sanjuro_ronin]

Weird, that one doesn't seem to load..
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNWlBd-I8lw

[EternalSpring]

Weird, that one doesn't seem to load..
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNWlBd-I8lw

oh wow, very insightful video. I never looked at it like that, in fact, I always wondered how people did push ups on the phoenix eye until now. Thank you!

[Fa Xing]

Weird, that one doesn't seem to load..
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNWlBd-I8lw

Cool, will have to give that a try later today.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How I use the IP bag for conditoning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q2bdeTraU4

On the punching bag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1kjj7ib00

I also use a hanging steel shot bag and sometimes a hanging padded post.

[Frost]

How I use the IP bag for conditoning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q2bdeTraU4

On the punching bag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1kjj7ib00

I also use a hanging steel shot bag and sometimes a hanging padded post.

always love seeing those clips.......any chance of you shooting some more

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I've been meaning to do a few Heavy bag clips, some on the wooden dummy and on the "anatomical dummy".
Just need to find the time and sweet talk the missus into video it on her playbook.