wing chun stance and it's grappling weakness

[wiz cool c]

Hi everyone, first off i don't want to diss anyone's style, i am just bored to death in bed recovering from knee surgery. and this was on my mind. i was think in a worse case scenario, that my knee is not what it used to be and i had to find a style that was less stressful on the knees then the southern styles i have been doing lately.


I remember a long while back[i have been in the martial art game a long time] checking out wing chun from various sources, and one of the things that popped into mind was that upright narrow stance with hands up is screaming ,please double leg take down me to a wrestler.

Later after i had already made this observation,this actually happened in a ufc match, a canadian wrestler David Benito,did just that in a match against a wing chun guy. ended the fight quickly. recently i started reading an old book written by Bruce Francis a well know internal guy. and in this book was a chapter on wing chun,and he mentions ,in his study of wing chun he found such a weakness,and also witnessed time and time again in lei tai matches,wing chun guys get slammed hard.

by now i would guess every wing chunner would have realized this stance leaves one very open to single double leg takedowns. so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

[Vajramusti]

Hi everyone, first off i don't want to diss anyone's style, i am just bored to death in bed recovering from knee surgery. and this was on my mind. i was think in a worse case scenario, that my knee is not what it used to be and i had to find a style that was less stressful on the knees then the southern styles i have been doing lately.


I remember a long while back[i have been in the martial art game a long time] checking out wing chun from various sources, and one of the things that popped into mind was that upright narrow stance with hands up is screaming ,please double leg take down me to a wrestler.

Later after i had already made this observation,this actually happened in a ufc match, a canadian wrestler David Benito,did just that in a match against a wing chun guy. ended the fight quickly. recently i started reading an old book written by Bruce Francis a well know internal guy. and in this book was a chapter on wing chun,and he mentions ,in his study of wing chun he found such a weakness,and also witnessed time and time again in lei tai matches,wing chun guys get slammed hard.

by now i would guess every wing chunner would have realized this stance leaves one very open to single double leg takedowns. so how is this addressed in the wing chun community?

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An answer: most people claiming to do wing chun have not passed wing chun 101-the stance.
Without 101 you can't do 202..

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, the YJKYM is a very important training stance, not a fighting stance. It develops structure and methods of generating power. Fighting requires mobility and freedom. The stances used in BJD are more for fighting.

We should be clear which moves are for training the body and which for actual fighting.

[trubblman]

I have always heard the answer: with a proper stance, one cannot be taken down. But i have never seen anyone impervious to a takedown by a trained grappler. By a trained grappler, I mean one who devotedly trains a grappling martial art. I think one trained in traditional martial arts with low stances can prevent a takedown more easily than a person trained in martial arts with a high stance.

[Vajramusti]

In my opinion, the YJKYM is a very important training stance, not a fighting stance. It develops structure and methods of generating power. Fighting requires mobility and freedom. The stances used in BJD are more for fighting.

We should be clear which moves are for training the body and which for actual fighting.

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True- but without a good ygkym hardwired into your system you can flip flop when mobile.
Of course you dont just stand there with ygkym in a real situation.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

I have always heard the answer: with a proper stance, one cannot be taken down. But i have never seen anyone impervious to a takedown by a trained grappler. By a trained grappler, I mean one who devotedly trains a grappling martial art. I think one trained in traditional martial arts with low stances can prevent a takedown more easily than a person trained in martial arts with a high stance.

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you have your opinion.See mine below.
You maybe limited by what you have seen. Good people in any style including grappling deserve respect for what they do.
Good wing chun persons after really learning the ygkym in great detai ( the average guy thinks he knows)- doesn't just stand there transfixed. He/she has many options.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

I have always heard the answer: with a proper stance, one cannot be taken down. But i have never seen anyone impervious to a takedown by a trained grappler. By a trained grappler, I mean one who devotedly trains a grappling martial art. I think one trained in traditional martial arts with low stances can prevent a takedown more easily than a person trained in martial arts with a high stance.

There is always fear where there is a lack of exposure.

I disagree with your premise on low vs. high stances. low stances are less mobile and are vulnerable to low singles and ankle picks. many high stances fail due to level changes and penetration steps.

An athletic stance which is somewhat in the middle is optimal - balanced and mobile to any direction. Then, there are specific movements to shut down specific attacks. They need to be learned and drilled.

There is mostly weakness due to lack of specific training. Which BTW does not involve advanced details on the basic parallel WCK stance. Specific training is resistance to specific pressures to learn how to deal with them.

[wingchunIan]

there is no "stance" that can prevent a double leg take down. The only way to avoid it is to move the feet as the person changes level. Biu ma, saam bok ma etc all work as long as you move off the line of the attack and outside the arms. strikes and gum sau to the head of the attacker also help to prevent continued forward motion

[Hardwork108]

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Good wing chun persons after really learning the ygkym in great detai ( the average guy thinks he knows)- doesn't just stand there transfixed. He/she has many options.

joy chaudhuri

Agreed.

That is common knowledge in any authentic Wing Chun kwoon. It is surprising that many people who claim Wing Chun experience are not aware of this fact, which based on an important foundation of genuine Wing Chun training.

[k gledhill]

VT requires mobility and angling to function. We adopt angles and counter motion with motion long before any striking is exchanged.

You cant fight in ygkym alone, its a drilling stance for mutual starting points and form work.

In SLT it is used to introduce a structured line of force from ground to our fists.
Hips and elbows are facing square, arms equally reach an apex point as they intersect a centerline. CK, this centerline / apex, always reaches equally as motion with line of force is added along with tactical ideas.

WSL mentions that in SLT techniques arent fully tactical or functional until the motion of Chum Kil is added. Meaning hip elbow ideas of SLT and body weight in motion as a 'unit' with facing forces combined to give displacing 'ging' and tactical maneuverability are required.

BCD footwork is even more elusive and shows how to gain ground or retreat equally in much larger steps to avoid being cut by an opponent swinging a blade wildly . We can also use this footwork on an advanced level seamlessly as required, why it isnt introduced too early or the force generation/tactics of the hands is confused for high mobility to cut & run along flanks that wouldnt allow hands to reach , let alone adopt elbow ideas, etc...

[couch]

there is no "stance" that can prevent a double leg take down. The only way to avoid it is to move the feet as the person changes level. Biu ma, saam bok ma etc all work as long as you move off the line of the attack and outside the arms. strikes and gum sau to the head of the attacker also help to prevent continued forward motion

Very good post.

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I prefer to deepen my Wing Chun stance and have the weight over the balls of my feet like I'm going to be wrestling with my opponent. This keeps my weight down and I'm ready to move on the balls of my feet in a moment's notice.

I, too, agree that no stance is superior to a takedown. Therefore, as many, I prefer to get my hips back on an angle while trying to bridge on the opponent's body somewhere (example: double Jum Sau on the neck).

[TenTigers]

why are you standing, when you should be fighting?

[trubblman]

There is always fear where there is a lack of exposure.

I disagree with your premise on low vs. high stances. low stances are less mobile and are vulnerable to low singles and ankle picks. many high stances fail due to level changes and penetration steps.

An athletic stance which is somewhat in the middle is optimal - balanced and mobile to any direction. Then, there are specific movements to shut down specific attacks. They need to be learned and drilled.

There is mostly weakness due to lack of specific training. Which BTW does not involve advanced details on the basic parallel WCK stance. Specific training is resistance to specific pressures to learn how to deal with them.

A low stance can prevent a leg takedown because a takedown depends on penetration. It is much more difficult to get penetration when the person is low. If you have a high stance then you have to rely on mobility to prevent a takedown but as MMA shows a lot of pure strikers have difficulty preventing a takedown using mobility. Its easier to get penetration on a high stance.

[Vajramusti]

why are you standing, when you should be fighting?

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Typical broken telephones on this forum. I for one never said that you stand petrified in a stance.
Both proper structure and proper motion are relevant in good Ip Man wing chun.

And(couch) if you are on the ball of your feet- you could be easily unbalanced by a grappler of any competence.

Enough for me. Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

[TenTigers]

yeah, I know. Just me bein' a smartazz...: