GM of Hadaka Korosu
Fair enough.Originally Posted by Mike Patterson
No, there was no ground fighting on those clips, it seems that one of the links that I clicked off your original video, that showed ground work was NOT one of yours so I apologise for the confusion there.
But since we are on the subject I am wonder in what way would your fighters fight differently IF ground fighting was permitted?
Have they ever fought when ground fighting was permitted?
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Banned
That can only be proven in open competition. Functional is relative. Competition puts how relative in perspective.
The best golfers, footballers, baseballers, runners, walkers, ping-pong players, surfers, skiiers..... they compete at the professional level.If the practitioner want to take things further then he should adapt his training to the sports arena, and that is fine too.
There are 0 straight TCMA pro MMAers.
Banned
I don't mind someone bridging me. I know where there hand is.... and its so kind of them to bridge me instead of beat my flesh.
Itinerant practitioner
"mma" isn't a style. By that logic there is no one competing in mma that isn't a cross trained individual who looks at what is required by the rule set (pretty much established as UFC ruleset)
there are plenty of guys with TCMA in MMA.
Kung Fu is good for you.
Registered User
No harm done. Thank you for owning up to the error.
As to the second and third question issues:
Funny and long story which I'll try to abbreviate to answer.
Not in competition, no. I re-involved myself in full contact coaching (after taking a hiatus upon my teacher's passing) for competition in the early 90's simply because I got very tired of hearing people say that internal martial arts were not useful for fighting.
We have always fought full contact in my school, with only one rule; If you can't use a technique with reasonable precision and control, wait until you can do so to use that technique. So anything went, including ground fighting.
So I looked around at what venues had a solid operating structure and came up with only three. There was kuoshou (my personal old venue), but the rules had changed substantively so initially I kept looking. But found only the sanshou federation as it was then and they were using too much padding for my tastes. I also found the kyokushin structure. But they weren't allowing hand strikes to the face. Again, not to my tastes. So it was back to Kuoshu.
The UFC, as you may remember, was just getting started and honestly had I been able to predict how popular it would become, I likely would have made the choice to take my teams that route. But, alas, I did not have that particular crystal ball.
So initally, I pulled my first team right out of my full contact classes. They did well (one gold and four silver in internationals that year) but we lost a few finals due to "fouling" by hooking the head and hitting or neck cranking and also hitting after taking down the opponent. Which were all now illegal.
I consider myself a decent coach and always there for my fighters, so we adapted training of the teams to the venue, shifting the emphasis to that which we were most likely to deal with. The Belgians loved to shoot and other foreign teams loved to "bullrush" so from that point forward, the "teams" focused more on counter methods to those types of attempts at grappling.
I've always believed in training people completely and then having them adapt their technique to the venue, whether that be the platform or the street. But I will admit that the goal of building a winning team does require priortizing their training emphasis. And I did just that.
This is already longer than I intended and I have another session, so will end here for now with one last comment. We would transition to the ground as well when necessary. How well we would have done? I don't know. But we do work the tools.
One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.
MP 2007
Banned
A session of what? What exactly did you teach?
Last edited by RWilson; 11-01-2011 at 04:12 PM.
Banned
So do street fights and challenge matches. And again, competition has its place, but in my humble opinion, one cannot judge the effectiveness of a fighting style or a even a given fighter, solely by competition performance.
An important point there is that the rules don't change when you take your football or tennis to the competition arena, but when it comes to fighting/self defense training the rules in a given competition will change.
I can't speak for others, but personally speaking, participation in sports competitions do not appeal to me, and I would not enter them even if I was 100% sure that I could beat my MMA opponents with one hand tied behind my back. I do not see any point in it personally, but I respect the wish of others to participate and I even enjoy watching such matches.
The point is that I am just a student, but I know sifus who are good fighters - fit and strong. Train hours every day of their lives, but they still not see any relevance in participating in sports competitions, different strokes, I say....
Last edited by Hardwork108; 11-01-2011 at 04:14 PM.
Registered User
Badaa and Bing.
These ring true to my sentiments as well.
Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me
http://www.pathsatlanta.org
Registered User
I second that!
Competition only exploits the rules as they are laid out, and don't have much to do with a no rule event. But if the other guy is using the same rules it would then help. But if you don't have those guidelines in a real event, you could be in trouble.
Sports are competition and entertainment combined, and the rules are built off of those conditions
Registered User
And for the the purpose of staying healthy enough to continue to compete for multiple years, which streetfights don't always afford.
Itinerant practitioner
well, maybe a decade, barring serious injury.
Truth of it is that 99% of everyone into it is not gonna really make
it as a sport fighter of any merit. That's in any venue.
Fighting isn't and never has been a ways or means to stay healthy.
It has always been a ways or means to do damage to another human body.
sport fighting is safer. I wouldn't say it's healthy. Training is healthy I suppose, but fighting regularly? pretty much a no-brainer that regular involvement in physical conflict is not healthy.
Sh1T i know people who have picked up long term injuries at a seminar!
That is not the way to go about things.
Kung Fu is good for you.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Thank you SifuNo harm done. Thank you for owning up to the error.
As to the second and third question issues:
Funny and long story which I'll try to abbreviate to answer.
Not in competition, no. I re-involved myself in full contact coaching (after taking a hiatus upon my teacher's passing) for competition in the early 90's simply because I got very tired of hearing people say that internal martial arts were not useful for fighting.
We have always fought full contact in my school, with only one rule; If you can't use a technique with reasonable precision and control, wait until you can do so to use that technique. So anything went, including ground fighting.
So I looked around at what venues had a solid operating structure and came up with only three. There was kuoshou (my personal old venue), but the rules had changed substantively so initially I kept looking. But found only the sanshou federation as it was then and they were using too much padding for my tastes. I also found the kyokushin structure. But they weren't allowing hand strikes to the face. Again, not to my tastes. So it was back to Kuoshu.
The UFC, as you may remember, was just getting started and honestly had I been able to predict how popular it would become, I likely would have made the choice to take my teams that route. But, alas, I did not have that particular crystal ball.
So initally, I pulled my first team right out of my full contact classes. They did well (one gold and four silver in internationals that year) but we lost a few finals due to "fouling" by hooking the head and hitting or neck cranking and also hitting after taking down the opponent. Which were all now illegal.
I consider myself a decent coach and always there for my fighters, so we adapted training of the teams to the venue, shifting the emphasis to that which we were most likely to deal with. The Belgians loved to shoot and other foreign teams loved to "bullrush" so from that point forward, the "teams" focused more on counter methods to those types of attempts at grappling.
I've always believed in training people completely and then having them adapt their technique to the venue, whether that be the platform or the street. But I will admit that the goal of building a winning team does require priortizing their training emphasis. And I did just that.
This is already longer than I intended and I have another session, so will end here for now with one last comment. We would transition to the ground as well when necessary. How well we would have done? I don't know. But we do work the tools.
I appreciate your willingness to share your views and opinions.
Have you contemplated competing in MMA at this point?
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
GM of Hadaka Korosu
RE: Competitions.
People that have competed have a very different view then those that haven't so I will say this as not only someone that has competed but also someone that has quite a number of years dealing with "real world" scenarios:
You will NOT find anyone on "the street" that will push you and test your MA skills as much as you will find in the ring.
Period.
In terms of skill testing and skill development, full contact MA competitions are indespensible for a fighter or anyone that views their MA as a fighting MA.
That said, you will NOT develop the awareness need for "street survival" in the ring but that is NOT what competition was designed for anyway.
The only way to develop that street awareness is by, well, exposing yourself to the dangers of "the street" and I don't see many of those "reality fighters" doing that either.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Registered User
Lord 6 pages and we are back on the same topic, (and someone does really have a selective memory) no one has I think ever said TCMA doesn’t address the ground in some capacity, what has been said is that it wasn’t a priority and as such doesn’t address the ground in a way that can be compared to BJJ, western wrestling or submission grappling. And really cant compare to ground grappling (or even ground fighting as it is today), ie training to get up against another none ground trained fighter who really doesn’t want to be there is one thing, training to stand up against a college level wrestler or blue belt in BJJ quite another and some sort of cross training is needed to fill the gaps, if it’s a concern to you that is.
So far we seem to have two people posting who feel TCMA does address this aspect of ground fighting, ie is comprehensive enough to deal with the modern ground fighters, one of those cant answer simple questions like how would you defend an arm bar or escape mount because he hasn’t actually trained the ground yet…but he know it there and is comprehensive ….but cant post one clip from his lineage showing it in action (which does raise serious questions about credibility)
The other has trained fighters to compete very successfully in stand up comps but I don’t think has entered anyone in MMA, or has any students in comps where the ground is covered so again no proof there although the fact he has produced guys that have fought well obviously adds a lot of weight to what he says.
On the other side we have people who have trained in TCMA for a long time, all over the world saying its not covered and cross training is needed, we also have books written by the likes of tim cartmell and bruce franzis saying the same thing and advocating cross training in grappling arts to learn the ground game
Until someone actually steps up and enters a ground comp or a comp that includes ground work in it and does well using ground grappling from a TCMA style I suggest we shelve these arguments because no one is going to change there mind anytime soon
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Tim came from Sifu Patterson's system and I think that the reason Tim added BJJ is quite simply because the system did NOT address ground grappling and ground fighting to the extent that Tim and his fighters NEEDED it to.
And that is another crucial element of open competition:
You are only as good as those you compete against and the better quaility of competion, the better you get.
Winning is irrelevant, learning and developing is everything.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
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