Kung fu bashers only have our interest at heart

[MightyB]

Well done indeed.

I dress up in monk's robes because it is a good way to meet celebrities and government dignitaries. Also, prostitutes give discounts if you bless them.

Is this true? And does it make a difference if you wear the gray or the orange robe?

[Lucas]

meow

[MightyB]

quit stealing all my secret fantasies

Hey now - I let you keep the one with the Cheetos and the Unit.ard

[Lucas]

that ones really top secret...

[MightyB]

that ones really top secret...

Your diligence and skill in finding that particular image has to be commended.

Well done sir! Bravo - Bravo!

[Lucas]

thank you thank you...my search fu has definately gotten better over the years here.

[Hardwork108]

GOOD POST!

I actually agree on certain points, and always have.

The there is still some hope for you yet, my boy!

When I see criticism of kung fu from people who got more contact training elsewhere that fails to note that the lack of contact training means they could not have entrained for combat any kung fu, I cringe.

That is exactly it! Add to that the fact that many only have a passing familiarity with their given style's principles, but think that they understand them, then what you have in front of you are Mcdojo fodder, as far as their TCMA knowledge is concerned.

When this is carried forward to now being an authority, I also cringe, because it is a sort of self-deluded fraud they are carrying out in their argumentation.

Again, you are talking about the typical delusion of grandeur gained by mixing illegitimate Mcdojo kung fu with LEGITIMATE MMA type training. This is actually a very interesting phenomenon, if you ask me.

Further, when I see people talk about how they have the real thing, and yet I see that the difference in the quality of info on all kung fu styles in English is so bad compared to stuff I can and have found in Chinese, and these same people are saying what everyone else needs to do to save their kung fu,

That is why the finding of GENUINE and AUTHENTIC instruction - even if far from easy - can never be overemphasized. I am sure that you have noticed that I go on and on repeating myself as regards the importance of genuine instruction.

I wonder how the ocean of their wisdom has failed to even fill a pamphlet with something a little more meaningful than "mantis uses a hooked hand, here's a form."

Yep, the watching the finger and not seeing the moon, people.....

That said, though the people you argue with often team up with such morons, which also makes me cringe, they are no such morons, but merely *******es for wasting time arguing all month with you. A number of them I am aware of have quite legitimate kung fu experience.

Please point them out to me, because I want to know who they are!

I just don't see why it isn't obvious to all that an absence of technical discussion specifically on kung fu on the most frequented english language kung fu board is going to be noticed and long term considered a red flag to people who might be interested in kung fu.

You wouldn't believe how many actual TCMA practitioners, as well as those interested in the TCMAs have been put off or even intimidated - and have left - by the likes of Dave Ross and others, who would take an innocent question put forward by a new poster and turn it to point of ridicule, because some how the "kung fu-ness" of enquiry did not fit well with their "new world" view of the "functional" MMA they supported or peddled!

That there is a real sense of urgency to turn this around, because the reputation of tcma in China isn't that much better, but since we're facing the problem first, we'd better make our own solutions. These arguments are a distraction from an important task, and they lead nowhere when they preempt technical discussion or preempt people with useful information on usage into arguments.

We would not have these arguments if the MMA crowd, admitted to their limitations as the "improvers" of the TCMAs and just came here to ask polite questions about these methodolgies, to enlighten themselves, instead of come here and more or less, tell us that what we do is "fantasy"!

You are correct in one sense, there is no question that a fighter who has not trained kung fu in a way to entrain the methods, has trained bjj and muay thai in a way to entrain the methods, and fights in a ring, cannot be using much kung fu.

THANK YOU!

I would go further and say that they have NO IDEA!

These people are "drunk" with their "decades" of MA experience, that in many cases has taken them away from the TCMA methodologies they seek to "improve" by adding Tae Kwon Do kicks!

They don't train kung fu; they don't fight kung fu and they cannot discuss kung fu in any depth without tripping on their tongues. That is the sad fact.

So, we have the in the ring this, or in the ring that; then we have, the pseudo scientific types who try to "debunk" every technique or concept that is beyond their limited TCMA understanding. For example, you show them (and their "decades" of experience) a TCMA fist formation that they are not familiar with, they will turn around and brush it as a "fantasy", because perhaps the grand master who invented the system, "had a broken finger and could not form a fist properly" (which somehow went unnoticed by his students and disciples; for generations, that is until the art arrived in Smucksville USA, and our pseudo scientific MMA-ist "I have also done 'kung fu' friend debunked it!

Show these people an unusual kicking methodology that they do not understand, then you might get, "oh, that doesn't work in 'real life'. The grand master that invented that system, must have had a wooden leg" (that also went unnoticed by his disciples...LOL)!

Then we have the famous, "the hollow fist is an Internal fantasy technique, invented for the lazy, rich upper class Chinese aristocrats". You ask, why do you say that? But, you will never hear, "because we have absolutely no idea about these methodologies, but are too cowardly and insecure to say it, so we act like modern, scientific know it alls, to hide our TCMA cluelessness - besides we have done BJJ, you know"......LOL!

It is a given that, since most kung fu schools do not entrain for this, most claiming to be experts because of ring time are not experts in kung fu.

Again, you are correctly referring to the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon, which effects over 90 percent of those who "train" TCMAs. Of course, that statistic does not apply to this forum, where everyone and their grandmothers, who train Muay Thai, BJJ, etc., are true TCMA experts, qualified to criticise, judge and IMPROVE not one, but all TCMAS under the sun.....LOL!

The goals must be training methods that allow entrainment of kung fu(which means replacing traditions like war and bodyguard work with other methods, which most often means gear and drills and sparring),

Agreed, but many schools already do that, but they are in the minority. Also, genuine kung fu training needs more than just contact sparring. People need to train and understand their forms properly (including the so called "development" forms).

People need to understand the principles, also, and beyond the usual superficial level. How many times have we heard about the famous "being" like water and leacking through. Yet many with the usual ring fighter mentality take this to be solely a way of finding a way through when you are attacking. That is while they quote the water principle, many times they have no idea of the "not going back" principle!!!

So, yes it is easy to "leak" through when you are on the attack and you find openings, but what about when you are attacked by a strong opponent. "Easy" and they say perhaps, " I will go back and draw him into a counter".

So, they see water leaking when it is flooding you, but they forget that water will leak into you when you try to push (attack) it. So, what are the training mindset and skill sets needed to not go back? Good question. The answer will open doors to deeper research into lesser known TCMA methodolgies.

open sharing of many methods, and, from there, increased availability of supporting materials in English that were previously unavailable, plus new works based on the results of more qualified individuals. Which means less making students into student-teachers at precisely the time they need to be advanced students, and less chatter in class and teachers showing off, and more teachers having good students to show off. If you don't have the goal of turning out students who could kick your ass, you won't, and because of the concept of face, kung fu has suffered under the burden of this limitation.

I believe that kung fu training was always about fighting. Of course, other aspects, including the cultural/moral ones were always involved, but at the end of the day the TCMAs are combat arts and many schools train them that way. Those that don't are mainly Mcdojos, because you will probably find that schools that don't train realistically will also not delve deeper into the conditioning and advanced principles.

And thanks to you for your civil post, as well.

[Drake]

Oh yeah.... and LARPers who write Thesis-length posts.

[Hardwork108]

Oh yeah.... and LARPers who write Thesis-length posts.

Try to read my post and see the valid and relevant (even to you) points, as regards the TCMAs, made in it, and leave your personal issues with me for the Off Topic section, where I regularly give you lessons on real world Geo Politics.

Thanks in advance.

[Drake]

Try to read my post and see the valid and relevant (even to you) points, as regards the TCMAs, made in it, and leave your personal issues with me for the Off Topic section, where I regularly give you lessons on real world Geo Politics.

Thanks in advance.

Thanks, I almost left that out!

CONDESCENDING LARPers who write Thesis-length posts.

Wow...almost missed that one. Thanks for the assist!

[Ray Pina]

That is exactly it! Add to that the fact that many only have a passing familiarity with their given style's principles, but think that they understand them, then what you have in front of you are Mcdojo fodder, as far as their TCMA knowledge is concerned.


Again, you are talking about the typical delusion of grandeur gained by mixing illegitimate Mcdojo kung fu with LEGITIMATE MMA type training. This is actually a very interesting phenomenon, if you ask me.

This thinking might make you feel better but,

I started with 15+ years of karate. 5 days a week. Many championships in my younger days.

6 years of Wing Chun and Hung Gar. ANother 6 years of internal with the fourth generation holder of Imperial Palace Ba Gua.... you can't get better lineage than that. He learned privately from a man who had Gong Bo Tien as a personal stay at home gym teacher.

I'm not talking from out of my ass. Combine this with about 3 years of accepting TCMA challenges and even combining it with work travel so it spanned the country.

I never lost a single challenge match.... it took me three years of MMA to finally win in that venue.

If you are the keeper of the real Kung Fu, how old are you, who have you trained with, and what have you done with this skill (ranks, championships, etc.)?

If you're implying your skill is full while mine is empty, I'd like to compare.

[Hardwork108]

Thanks, I almost left that out!

CONDESCENDING LARPers who write Thesis-length posts.

Wow...almost missed that one. Thanks for the assist!

Sheeesh! I spend hours writing about the real world geo-politics for Drake, and instead of thanking me, he calls me condecending.

You are a difficult student, I give you that, but I am a dedicated teacher and I sure that what seem like very complicated concepts and facts will eventually sink in for you!

However, we better leave your real world geopolitical education for the Off Topic section, as this thread is about the state of the TCMAs, which is a fascinating topic in itself.

[Brule]

Don't fall for it HW108. What Ray means when he says compare is say he'll go light sparring then when the bell rings, go ballz to the wall. All of a sudden you're left looking at him doing this.............

[David Jamieson]

Be civil with each other.
I will close this thread.
You KNOW I can be a d1ck that way.

[Hardwork108]

This thinking might make you feel better but,

I started with 15+ years of karate. 5 days a week. Many championships in my younger days.

6 years of Wing Chun and Hung Gar. ANother 6 years of internal with the fourth generation holder of Imperial Palace Ba Gua.... you can't get better lineage than that. He learned privately from a man who had Gong Bo Tien as a personal stay at home gym teacher.

I'm not talking from out of my ass. Combine this with about 3 years of accepting TCMA challenges and even combining it with work travel so it spanned the country.

I never lost a single challenge match.... it took me three years of MMA to finally win in that venue.

If you are the keeper of the real Kung Fu, how old are you, who have you trained with, and what have you done with this skill (ranks, championships, etc.)?

If you're implying your skill is full while mine is empty, I'd like to compare.

This is not about me, not even about you, it is about the general state of the TCMAs. There are other on this planet that can quote similar TCMA experience to yours, but who are at the same time happy with their TCMA. You are not happy with what TCMA have given you and have taken a different path.

That is fine too, and my respects, specially due to the fact that you are kind of "hands on" as regards funtional training, but I still repeat that it is not fair to judge the whole of the TCMAs in an MMA context, specially when for the sports oriented fighting people there are the Sanda matches, including the Sanda vs. Karate, Muay Thai,etc. to get an idea of the TCMAs in a sport context.

As for me, I am an intermediate kung fu student - no secrets there. I know that this may sound "bad" in forum where everyone and their grandmothers, act like kung fu experts....LOL!

As for my teachers, you would not know them from Adam, and even if you knew them, that would not mean anything as far as my skills are concerned. I mean look at Dave Ross's teacher and then look at Dave Ross the "man"...

So, I am afraid that my words on this forum have to do. Some people agree with me, some don't. It all depends on the level of personal exposure to the TCMAs.