Kung fu bashers only have our interest at heart

[Drake]

I absolutely agree with this.. you have to be willing to go there. Where you get into the most trouble is trying to "stop" this from happening.

Years ago, Dave Cater of IKF when interviewing me, called me on a statement I made about the bridge. I said if the opponent wants to bridge, why should I try to stop him? He stopped the interview and asked me if I meant to say that. When I said yes I did, he asked why would I want to allow an opponent to bridge on me? I said because now he has come out of his "house" and has momentum. This gives me opportunity. Why would I want to stop him and allow him to reset himself?

The same thing can be applied to the willingness to go to the ground. Once there, it is up to stylistic perspectives what you do, don't do, can and can't do. All positions are subject to counter. All dominance is subjective until conclusion. This is a simple truth. Nothing is a "be all and end all". If it were, that's all any of us would do.

I think this was brought up earlier, but if you come from a place where everyone just kicks and punches, then you will do the same, and try your best to be better than those around you at it. As nobody is on the ground wrestling about, there really wasn't much need to be good at that. You'd spend the time perfecting your other aspects instead. Because if you are wasting your time working on a fighting method that nobody uses, your opponents/friends/competitors are all busy getting better at the methods they DO use.

It's not BAD that TCMA doesn't have groundfighting, because it's simply an indicator of the culture and the time. It's BAD if you think it'll get you through a fight with some good ol' boys who have a fondness for "rasslin'".

[Mike Patterson]

I think this was brought up earlier, but if you come from a place where everyone just kicks and punches, then you will do the same, and try your best to be better than those around you at it. As nobody is on the ground wrestling about, there really wasn't much need to be good at that. You'd spend the time perfecting your other aspects instead. Because if you are wasting your time working on a fighting method that nobody uses, your opponents/friends/competitors are all busy getting better at the methods they DO use.

It's not BAD that TCMA doesn't have groundfighting, because it's simply an indicator of the culture and the time. It's BAD if you think it'll get you through a fight with some good ol' boys who have a fondness for "rasslin'".

Right. See... I personally don't come from a place where everyone was just punching and kicking. I come from a place where people did anything and everything in a street fight, including pull a blade, a stick or a chain. So my perspectives are perhaps a bit different than some.

But to each his or her own, I reckon.

[Drake]

Right. See... I personally don't come from a place where everyone was just punching and kicking. I come from a place where people did anything and everything in a street fight, including pull a blade, a stick or a chain. So my perspectives are perhaps a bit different than some.

But to each his or her own, I reckon.

I have never in my life seen someone use a chain in a fight. Knives, even guns... but never a chain. I know it happens, but I've never seen it.

[Mike Patterson]

I have never in my life seen someone use a chain in a fight. Knives, even guns... but never a chain. I know it happens, but I've never seen it.

Product of the era and location I suppose, Drake. In my early days in Taiwan, the street gangs favored two weapons because of easy concealment and range I reckon. One was a short stick with a straight razor imbedded and secured into one end, often fashioned into a half hook. It could be kept up the sleeve of the jacket. The second, a length of chain which could be put around the waist and under the jacket. Sometimes an actual chinese whipchain. Sometimes just a length of heavy chain.

A friend of mine was beaten to death with such weapons in front of the President Hotel in the mid 70's right after Carter had stated he was going to oust Taiwan in favor of Mainland China in some over the top political move. The U.S. flag was burned in protest and U.S. Citizens (or even those just looking like such) became targets for awhile. My friend was actually a British foreign national.

Ah, the good old days.

[Shaolindynasty]

I have never in my life seen someone use a chain in a fight.

I have but he took it out wrapped it around his hand and punched the other guy

[Hardwork108]

Well, I have a scar on my frontal skull that runs down from just under my hair part into the top of my forehead from an impact delivered by a makeshift club in the form of a pipe with a bit of concrete slag on the end of it by my third adversary in that fight that says.. ummm.... yeah.... I think street fights are about as NHB as one can get.

Agreed!

[Hardwork108]

.

It's not BAD that TCMA doesn't have groundfighting, because it's simply an indicator of the culture and the time. It's BAD if you think it'll get you through a fight with some good ol' boys who have a fondness for "rasslin'".

....But the fact is that TCMA does have ground fighting. How many times do you guys need the facts repeated?

[YouKnowWho]

I have never in my life seen someone use a chain in a fight. Knives, even guns... but never a chain. I know it happens, but I've never seen it.

This is one of my favor weapon. I can pull it out quickly if needed. I truly don't know whether it's leagal or not to have it on my wasit in US.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2649/beltn.jpg

The chain was quite popular in Taiwan when I was in elementary school (bicycle chain was easy to get). There was one street fight that I saw, one side was the local tricycle ridders (similiar to our taxi drivers today) and the other side was the local gang. My elder cousin was in it. The tricycle ridders was using sticks and the local gangs all use chains and canvas belts with metail belt buckles.

[Dragonzbane76]

It's not BAD that TCMA doesn't have groundfighting, because it's simply an indicator of the culture and the time. It's BAD if you think it'll get you through a fight with some good ol' boys who have a fondness for "rasslin'".

I agree i dont think its a bad thing. Many "styles" dont have it. Just presents a chance to gain that knowledge someplace else. Like i said learning ground work just helps u with all round self def. Being able to get off the ground and escape is key in some situations. Learning ground work greatly improves this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All due respect.. your ascertainment is made from a flawed perspective in two ways;

1) You cannot compare amateur students to professional fighters (assuming that's what you meant) in any venue, even the same one, other than in terms of tactics and principles learned/utilized within said venue.

2) Kuoshu rule structures have never allowed any sort of continued ground fighting. The closest the rule set came was way back in my day when we were allowed to strike once as a finishing move as the opponent hit the ground.

To have first hand knowledge of what we do on the ground, I guess you'd have to come visit. As I am certainly now too old to compete any more.

Also, both you and HW108 seem to be ignoring something else I said. So I'll restate it here: Although we CAN go to the ground and stay, it is not our way. Our way is to punish and get back up. This is something that has been stated by others as well.

Seems to me that there is a bit of confusion (or maybe it's just me) over the terms "ground grappling" and "ground fighting". TCMA can do the latter. It is not our way to engage in the former.

A "submission" in current sport framework translates usually to a damaged/broken limb or neck in old style framework.

Our way is to stay mobile and not engage longer than necessary on the ground.

But hey, I'm not here to convince anyone. In person is better.

I was looking at it SOLELY form the perspective of ground grappling and ground work and yes, indeed comparing it to MMA BUT I was NOT comparing it to professional MMA but the typical amateur level that is far more valid under the circumstances.
And yes, you are correct that there seems to be a confusin between ground grappling and ground fighting and what I and others have been making VERY clear is that TCMA do NOT have specialised ground grappling at the level of BJJ or MMA.
And thank you for the invitation Sifu, I would be very honoured to visit you and see for myself.

[Ray Pina]

....But the fact is that TCMA does have ground fighting. How many times do you guys need the facts repeated?

There's the ground fighting you think you have, and then there's the ability to compete with wrestlers, BJJers, Judo, etc. in open competition.

BJJ has straight self defense moves. Classics.... we all have to learn them to get rank. I never use them in sparring or fighting because there are much better options available to me.

Your martial arts should be like a custom entertainment system. You go out and buy the best components. The maker of the best TV will not be the maker of the best gold wires, the maker of the best DVD, the maker of the best game system, the maker of the best speakers.

If TCMA had legit ground game they wold have respectable, not have to win a majority, just respectable showings in open grappling tournaments. Essentially, they're not even presented. Same for MMA....... what does that tell you?

[Hardwork108]

There's the ground fighting you think you have, and then there's the ability to compete with wrestlers, BJJers, Judo, etc. in open competition.

The issue I was discussing was the fact that the TCMAs addressed the ground scenario, and they DO! The do so both, as regards prevention and survival, once on the ground.

How well they would do on the ground will depend more or less on the same factors as determine how well they would do standing up, and that is how hard and realisitically they train their methodologies.

Your martial arts should be like a custom entertainment system. You go out and buy the best components. The maker of the best TV will not be the maker of the best gold wires, the maker of the best DVD, the maker of the best game system, the maker of the best speakers.

I believe that as far as at least some of the old/major TCMA styles are concerned, the best components have already been put together for us. The question is wether most of those who are learning these methodologies, are doing so as intended by the masters who first combined all the necessary components as regards a given Kung fu style?

The answer to that question seems unfortunately to be a big NO, as far as most practitioners are concerned, not least most who post in this forum.

If TCMA had legit ground game they wold have respectable, not have to win a majority, just respectable showings in open grappling tournaments. Essentially, they're not even presented. Same for MMA....... what does that tell you?

That tells me the same thing that it tells me as far as TCMA stand up is concerned, which is also relatively invisible in the sports tournament scenario.

The important point is that by training hard in an authentic kung fu kwoon that teaches a given style as it was meant to be taught - covering ALL of its fighting ranges, one can be a functional fighter. That is all that matters. If the practitioner want to take things further then he should adapt his training to the sports arena, and that is fine too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey HW8, you never answered my question on one of the other threads, don't know if you saw it...
I asked how does your system of WC deal with:
Single leg takedown?
Defending the arm bar?
Defending the triangle? and if I can add one more:
Getting out from under the mount?

[Hardwork108]

Hey HW8, you never answered my question on one of the other threads, don't know if you saw it...
I asked how does your system of WC deal with:
Single leg takedown?
Defending the arm bar?
Defending the triangle? and if I can add one more:
Getting out from under the mount?

I answered your question but for someone else, because I missed it the first time, and the someone else reminded me of it, but I can't find it now!

Anyway, to cut a short story shorter, I will answer your question as soon as I reach the ground fighting level of the syllabus. As you may know, even though I have other kung fu experience, I only train with my WC sifu on more or less, regular visits to Rio, and most of that is to maintain skills, so new material is not covered that much.

I should hopefully be living in Brasil once again, within the next 2 years, so I will have more info in that department.

[Mike Patterson]

I was looking at it SOLELY form the perspective of ground grappling and ground work and yes, indeed comparing it to MMA BUT I was NOT comparing it to professional MMA but the typical amateur level that is far more valid under the circumstances.
And yes, you are correct that there seems to be a confusin between ground grappling and ground fighting and what I and others have been making VERY clear is that TCMA do NOT have specialised ground grappling at the level of BJJ or MMA.
And thank you for the invitation Sifu, I would be very honoured to visit you and see for myself.

I took issue with your original statement:

On this I will disagree with Shifu Patterson.
Having seen his students ( from his videos) and having seen what it takes to be competitive in current MMA, it seems to me that they NEED to get some "outside help".
In the area of Ground grappling.

Since the kuoshu rule set does not permit ground grappling, I don't see how you can make a judgement on what we may or may not be able to do "in the area of ground grappling".

If you wish to make a comparison between amateur MMA sans ground aspects, e.g. striking and throwing methodologies, then I think that can be discussed perhaps given the evidence you are familiar with. But the ground grappling and/or fighting aspects would have to be left out as you have seen nothing of that from us to this point, yes?