Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a big difference between military MA like the koryu systems of feudal Japan and civilian "peasant" MA like those that were taught to non-military people.
ALL military systems revolved around weapons first and empty hand second and most empty hand was grappling and throwing ( you don't strike armour with bare hands).
It makes sense that civilian systems were more oriented towards grappling and striking and that the striking portion became developed.
One of the most effective Jujutsu systems in terms of striking was the Tenjin-Shinyo Ryu and it was developed by a low ranking samurai for civilian use.
In terms of military systems Japan has the most catalogued and it is logical to assume that what they did typiclaly was what was done in most asian cultures ( and even western) and what do we find?
Priority on edge and projectile weapons ( sword, knife, bow and arrow), secondary priority on grappling with weapons and last off empty hand grappling and striking.
You find this is also the pattern in western military arts.
And ground grappling was used and taught because you DID end up on the ground and had to defend yourself from there.
Of course it was a question of protect and get your ass up, rather than submit, but remember that you are dealing with armoured and armed fighters and that changes a lot.

What we have left over in TCMA and even the majority of TMA of Japan, Okinawa and Korea, are civilian systems and as such, we can't compare those "apples and organges".
Sure they are both fruits and both have peels and both have seeds and both grow on trees, but no one will every confuse one with the other.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The worst part about these discussions is the idiocy that comes along with "my co***ck is bigger than yours" statements and overall douchebaggery.

A "straight" art is something that focuses only on one aspect. If I am a great kickboxer I will do well against another striker and possibly a grappler however if the grappler gets clinch I am most likely fu**cked. Training striking from the clinch as opposed to stand up with distance is two different things and are trained differently.

Also, a straight grappler is going to have a hard time dealing with strikes if he is not used to it. A pure wrestler or pure BJJ guy who gets his shot or takedown stuffed and starts eating knees and or liver and rib shots is going to have a hard time dealing.

Really all this hypothetical BS is just that, Bull Sh**it!! Train all areas and be ready. Stop nut riding a style, I assure neither an old master from China or one of the Gracies give a sh**it about you honoring their style. The mere mention of it is retarded and makes me want to vomit!!

[wenshu]

There is a big difference between military MA like the koryu systems of feudal Japan and civilian "peasant" MA like those that were taught to non-military people.
ALL military systems revolved around weapons first and empty hand second and most empty hand was grappling and throwing ( you don't strike armour with bare hands).
It makes sense that civilian systems were more oriented towards grappling and striking and that the striking portion became developed.
One of the most effective Jujutsu systems in terms of striking was the Tenjin-Shinyo Ryu and it was developed by a low ranking samurai for civilian use.
In terms of military systems Japan has the most catalogued and it is logical to assume that what they did typiclaly was what was done in most asian cultures ( and even western) and what do we find?
Priority on edge and projectile weapons ( sword, knife, bow and arrow), secondary priority on grappling with weapons and last off empty hand grappling and striking.
You find this is also the pattern in western military arts.
And ground grappling was used and taught because you DID end up on the ground and had to defend yourself from there.
Of course it was a question of protect and get your ass up, rather than submit, but remember that you are dealing with armoured and armed fighters and that changes a lot.

What we have left over in TCMA and even the majority of TMA of Japan, Okinawa and Korea, are civilian systems and as such, we can't compare those "apples and organges".
Sure they are both fruits and both have peels and both have seeds and both grow on trees, but no one will every confuse one with the other.

Also have to consider that the Edo period represents the stagnation of the development and practice of actual battlefield tactics among the military class and the movements towards Confucian ideals of cultivation, scholarship and ethics.

The same cycle of political stability and its pacifying influence on martial practice can be seen in China. I think this is one of the main historical roots of the problem of ineffectiveness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Also have to consider that the Edo period represents the stagnation of the development and practice of actual battlefield tactics among the military class and the movements towards Confucian ideals of cultivation, scholarship and ethics.

The same cycle of political stability and its pacifying influence on martial practice can be seen in China. I think this is one of the main historical roots of the problem of ineffectiveness.

Quite correct and in Okinawa too.
The fighting system of "TE" was replaced by the combative art of Karate that was more focused on "spiritual" matters than on practical combat, much to the shagrin of many old school TE masters.

[Hardwork108]

The worst part about these discussions is the idiocy that comes along with "my co***ck is bigger than yours" statements...........

Is it my fault?

A "straight" art is something that focuses only on one aspect. If I am a great kickboxer I will do well against another striker and possibly a grappler however if the grappler gets clinch I am most likely fu**cked. Training striking from the clinch as opposed to stand up with distance is two different things and are trained differently.

I personally have not come across a kung fu style that was striking only and/or focused on one aspect! IF you have, then chances are that you were being taken for a ride like most who claim TCMA "experience".

Also, a straight grappler is going to have a hard time dealing with strikes if he is not used to it.

Is there such a thing as a "straight" grappler?

Hey, just kidding! LOL!

Really all this hypothetical BS is just that, Bull Sh**it!! Train all areas and be ready. Stop nut riding a style, I assure neither an old master from China or one of the Gracies give a sh**it about you honoring their style.

AS far as the TCMAs are concerned, if you have been lucky enough to find a genuine kwoon that teaches you the art in a complete and hardcore manner - it is not about honoring so much the style, but of honoring your own intelligence (attention span included)!

[Taixuquan99]

99% of kung fu is a relation between striking and clinch. A tiny bit deals with ground issues.

[Hardwork108]

99% of kung fu is a relation between striking and clinch. A tiny bit deals with ground issues.

I wouldn't know because I have not practiced 99% of the kung fu on the planet.

I only speak of what I know of for sure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you sure you know?
Things aren't always what they seem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLc...eature=related

[Hardwork108]

Are you sure you know?
Things aren't always what they seem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLc...eature=related

That was very funny!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Originally posted by Hard On 108:

AS far as the TCMAs are concerned, if you have been lucky enough to find a genuine kwoon that teaches you the art in a complete and hardcore manner - it is not about honoring so much the style, but of honoring your own intelligence (attention span included)!

I was not directing anything towards you, but as usual I see you took it that way. Funny, my website, name, credentials, and all else are easily accessed, as well as some of my training videos and what not. But you of course remain a cowardly net ghost who likes to twist things into what you believe, or, more accurately, what you would like to believe.

Have fun with that.

[David Jamieson]

Let's continue to keep it civil even when other people fail to comprehend the obvious.
You can explain it to them as many times as you need to, but it really is up to them to comprehend it. Some people take a long time to understand. Usually because they talk too much and don't listen, but hey, patience is a virtue.

Not that I"m virtuous, just saying...

[Hardwork108]

Originally posted by Hard On 108:

Finally someone who got my name right!

I was not directing anything towards you, but as usual I see you took it that way.

I was just referring to a general truth. The point was that any thorough study of a given discipline will give a multi level understanding of it otherwise one is just "shooting in the dark" as proven when the "TCMA-ists", with decades of "experience" (and their real names ) were recently proven to be wrong about the TCMAs not addressing the ground scenario (as well as the existance of the Internals as valid methodologies and the importance/relevance of forms for kung fu training).

I hope that my point is clearer now.

Funny, my website, name, credentials, and all else are easily accessed, as well as some of my training videos and what not. But you of course remain a cowardly net ghost who likes to twist things into what you believe, or, more accurately, what you would like to believe.

Yet the "ghost" got it right and has been right for years about the existance and validity of the Internals; the existance of ground training in the TCMAs, and the relevance of forms training, while many who post their "experience"; their real names; websites; email; grandmother's address etc, got it wrong, because they had no clue about these specific subject matters!

You know, I am not a coward, but some of you guys are really courageous, because you have the guts to reveal your real names while you go on to post many untrue generalizations and suppositions as regards TCMA training methodologies in which your experiences are at best questionable (in line with the real world Mcdojo phenomenon).

If I were you, I would pay close attention to statements make by the likes of Sifu Patterson here in the forums.

[Hardwork108]

Let's continue to keep it civil even when other people fail to comprehend the obvious.
You can explain it to them as many times as you need to, but it really is up to them to comprehend it. Some people take a long time to understand. Usually because they talk too much and don't listen, but hey, patience is a virtue.

You can say that again! I don't know how many times I am going to have to repeat myself to that Iron Eagle fellow!

[Northwind]

Let's continue to keep it civil even when other people fail to comprehend the obvious.
You can explain it to them as many times as you need to, but it really is up to them to comprehend it. Some people take a long time to understand.

So whatcha sayin here? TCMA got no ground-game?
Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

[David Jamieson]

So whatcha sayin here? TCMA got no ground-game?
Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

****** Kyle!