Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?

[omarthefish]

Allow me to disagree based on what I have seen in person AND on video...

Well, even you said yourself, knives are a different story. I only went with sticks because I don't think I have it in myself to stab someone just to avoid a beating. If I felt there was real danger to my wife or sister or something like that, different story. As far as just some punk with a BJJ purple belt who feels the need to prove he can kick my ass...I expect I would take the ass kicking before I put a knife in someone.

Point is, grappling is an issue but it's not the ultimate issue by a long shot. We live in an incredibly safe world these days (contrary to popular opinion) and virtually nobody in the US or Canada is in any real danger of being arm barred unless they go looking for it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Contrary to popular (uninformed) belief, practicing in seiza serves a very important function, which is not negated by modern times/methods.
It isolates the skill so that you are not using any other movement, footwork etc., to facilitate the technique.
Too many "modern thinkers," seeing this method as outdated, referring to them as simply, "Classical," or "Dojo technique," have once again thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Sure, but classical arts did NOT practice in seiza that much, especially the sword arts ( outside of the occasional short sword work).
They did as much seiza work as modern MA do "chair work".
Well...perhaps more so since very few modern MA do ANY chair work at all.

[Golden Arms]

So then I guess the question is, how much ground-grappling is enough? If this isn't your primary thing, what are the basics for self-defense? Obviously if you encounter a ground-grappling specialist, it's game over but we don't all want to become BJJ masters for that 'one day' when we encounter the grappling specialist.

EO

If you are serious, make a commitment to consistently carry a blade. Practice regularly presenting it from your chosen carry spot and when in different positions. Then make a personal deal with yourself to decide when you would feel it is a viable option to use the weapon so that you don't have to make that decision as things unfold.

I have done some grappling and also agree with the statement about understanding the clinch range as being a vital component. A blade is still a very powerful deterrent in the right hands however.

[wenshu]

Brings me to another question. So what if extant Chinese gong fu doesn't have ground submissions? Why do people desperately insist on believing that it does?

[Lucas]

Many people who have only ever trained cma/tcma will take a stance and debate that cma does have good ground grappling, generally in the form of saying you can apply chin na on the ground, regardless of what one says it is not exactly the same, it will take a lot of work and time to make that transition viable to the same degree that other arts have already achieved, it can be done, but you are somewhat re-inventing the wheel so to speak, standing and ground grappling have commonalities but are not the same thing. Even if you do train the ground on a regular basis in your cma school, chances are it is not on par with systems that have not only a greater emphasis, but a long tradition and history of such an emphasis. unless of course you have some secret cross training and infusion going on. Genrally speaking, even if you transition chin na to the ground, you still need a frame of reference to work from, ie: other competent grapplers to test your skills with. not non grapplers or others trying to develop grappling

It is human nature to defend what we are and what we spend our time doing/becoming, the problem is people taking this stance without having gone and trained in these other systems to have a solid frame of reference to debate from. the evidence is in the people who have done just this. MANY of us have been die hard traditionalists and 'defenders' of the cma way, and then we did the homework. we went out and tasted the flavor for ourselves, and THEN made a truly informed and educated decision.

you can argue all you want that cma is on par with arts like jiujitsu or judo, but if you have not trained in those arts, how can you truly know, and further more how can one be so presumtious as to speak from the standpoint of knowledge when you dont have it?

at that point your portion of the debate is merely speculation and assumption. knowledge will always trump assumption. every single time.

[Eric Olson]

The people saying TCMA has ground-grappling seem kind of clueless to me. Even it does, it's not the emphasis by any means and certainly not in all styles. ChiNa can work if you have position but that assumes position.

But back to my question, let's take someone like me for example. My background is primarily in TCMA and the emphasis is on striking. I studied CLF for ten years, Chen Taiji for about the equivalent and have a smattering of training in Boxing, Hung Gar, Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. I know how to throw a punch and hold my ground on my feet.

What is the bare bones that I need to learn to adequately defend myself on against a ground-grappling brute? Not someone that is a BJJ black belt, but maybe a big guy that wrestled in highschool (there's a lot more of those out there after all and they probably drink more heavily.)

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

The people saying TCMA has ground-grappling seem kind of clueless to me. Even it does, it's not the emphasis by any means and certainly not in all styles. ChiNa can work if you have position but that assumes position.

But back to my question, let's take someone like me for example. My background is primarily in TCMA and the emphasis is on striking. I studied CLF for ten years, Chen Taiji for about the equivalent and have a smattering of training in Boxing, Hung Gar, Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. I know how to throw a punch and hold my ground on my feet.

What is the bare bones that I need to learn to adequately defend myself on against a ground-grappling brute? Not someone that is a BJJ black belt, but maybe a big guy that wrestled in highschool (there's a lot more of those out there after all.)

EO

Honestly?
A year of MMA or even a year in BJJ is enough given the experience you listed.
For some it may take even less but a god year in a good gym with solid teachers and partners will give you the skill set you need to understand how to counter the most common ground grappling scenarios.

[Dragonzbane76]

A year of MMA or even a year in BJJ is enough given the experience you listed.
For some it may take even less but a god year in a good gym with solid teachers and partners will give you the skill set you need to understand how to counter the most common ground grappling scenarios.

agree with the above. Lucas pointed out some good stuff as well.

My advise is to get outside the box. go out get humbled by someone with a good deal of experience in grappling. Learn the clinch so you are able to negate the takedown. work towards your strength (stand up I presume) The way to defeat something is to learn what it is.

[David Jamieson]

Also remember that no matter how hard you train or for how long, you will deteriorate, you will fail at the hand of another, you will be beaten, you will on occasion succeed and your window and timeline for doing it as a for real fighter is very short.

It is impossible to be at the top of your game for any longer than the time it takes for the next guy to come along and knock you down.

What you really need to be doing is willing to take the risks and understanding that it is life's risks that have the payouts.

never trying is never doing, never doing is never learning, never learning is never understanding.

[Hardwork108]

Also remember that no matter how hard you train or for how long, you will deteriorate, you will fail at the hand of another, you will be beaten, you will on occasion succeed and your window and timeline for doing it as a for real fighter is very short.

It is impossible to be at the top of your game for any longer than the time it takes for the next guy to come along and knock you down.

What you really need to be doing is willing to take the risks and understanding that it is life's risks that have the payouts.

never trying is never doing, never doing is never learning, never learning is never understanding.

If you take the Internal approach then you will improve for longer, as you get older, or at least not deteriorate so much. Of course, I am not talking the world of intense sports fighting, where one's fighting life span can sometimes be cut short with needless and silly injuries.

[wenshu]

Also remember that no matter how hard you train or for how long, you will deteriorate, you will fail at the hand of another, you will be beaten, you will on occasion succeed and your window and timeline for doing it as a for real fighter is very short.

It is impossible to be at the top of your game for any longer than the time it takes for the next guy to come along and knock you down.

What you really need to be doing is willing to take the risks and understanding that it is life's risks that have the payouts.

never trying is never doing, never doing is never learning, never learning is never understanding.

Fuck all that noise jack. I'll just practice zhan zhuang and read The Secret.

[Ray Pina]

The smarter ones are laughing less now, since people like Sifu Mike Patterson, confirmed the existance of ground fighting in TCMAs and gave validity to Internal practices

Confirming with type-written words is different than proving in open competition that draws BJJ, Judo, wrestling.

[Ray Pina]

One more vote in there for the armed combat connection.

Wrestling, Sport BJJ etc. it's all ritualized combat. "Real" combat is done with weapons. Always has been.

Grappling is extremely important for armed conflict... otherwise you get your weapon taken away.

Soldiers in war find themselves in hand-to-hand range with and sometimes without a working weapon.

This falling back on weaponry as an excuse is inexcusable. Even in weaponry, how many Kendo champions has TCMA produced? There are forums for live weapons play as well.

[David Jamieson]

Grappling is extremely important for armed conflict... otherwise you get your weapon taken away.

Soldiers in war find themselves in hand-to-hand range with and sometimes without a working weapon.

This falling back on weaponry as an excuse is inexcusable. Even in weaponry, how many Kendo champions has TCMA produced? There are forums for live weapons play as well.

I think he means guns. I guess he could mean swords, but you'd have to be pretty long in the tooth to think that swords were combat usable anymore than pre WW1. they were pretty much for dress then.

I do agree, weapon retention is important, but modern combat doesn't include H2H and will do so less and less and less as time carries on.

all violent conflict H2H stuff will be for sport eventually. It is near entirely useless on a modern battlefield these days.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,
To me it's not a question of needing to know what to do on the ground, it's a question of what your goal is when you're on the ground--do you try to wrap your legs around your opponent, or do you try to get out from underneath and get your feet back?
Both approaches can work...sometimes.

There is a time for both. If you just escaped being mounted or side control, regaining guard is a victory. Victories are won in small steps.

If you can get right back up from a scramble fine..... sometimes you can't. You need, at the least, to know how to technically escape every position without striking. If you can't escape from the bottom, you're not going to do it when the other guy can hit you too.... he was good enough to get you in the bad position.

Personally, I have no real interest in ground fighting without striking...just not my thing.

If you are inferior in straight grappling, it's because you don't understand the position, how to control it, how to advance it and how to escape it.... allowing striking will not help you then other than the lucky punch, which happens. But you can take the beating of a lifetime taking that gamble. Which, personally, is why I think we see no straight TCMAer in MMA..... no one is willing to put their arse on the line. Just talk and type.