Is your WC/VT/WT conservative or progressive?

[Grumblegeezer]

One thing that really stands out when people post here is that some people are forward looking and "progressive" in their view of WC, while others are more conservative and look backwards to their Si-fus, Si-gungs and their lineages for authoritative answers and validation.

To those who look forward, WC provides a conceptual framework and foundation , but the system is ever evolving and adapting. If the past generations were good, then future generations have the potential to be better ...if they are willing to learn, adapt and evolve. They view the "system" of Wing Chun as one might view a mechanical design, such as that of a race car. With every generation come technological advances that, if properly utilized, can potentially improve the car's performance. So with Wing Chun, each generation stands on the shoulders of the previous one, and has the potential to go even further granted the talent, intelligence, and drive.

On the other hand, there are a great many conservatives who place primacy in the wisdom of the great masters of the past. There is a sense that the current generation is but a shadow of those who went before us. And the best of our generation are those who most faithfully seek to reproduce the skills of the authentic masters of the past.

From my perspective, there is some merit in each position, so I listen to the arguments of both. Which viewpoint do you favor?

[YouKnowWho]

My favor example is the "copy machine". No matter how good that you can learn from your previous generation. You are just a copy machine, no more and no less. For people who learns from you will have no difference from direct learning from your teacher. This to somebody may be good enough. You have "preserve" your art from the previous generation into the future generation. The only problem is that you have no contributation to your style. To somebody, "contributation" may be more important than "preservation".

Old Chinese saying said, "When geese flies over the sky, it's voice will be left. When a tiger dies, it's skin will be left. When a person dies, his name will be remembered." Without "contributation", your name will not be remembered in the future generation.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Vanity is a fatal flaw in human nature. We tend to consider ourselves smarter than our ancestors. That we today do things better than they did them. Of course we have more advanced technology and materials, but there are some things we simply can not improve upon. Some things have already been worked down to a science. I think Wing Chun is such a thing. Anything you change will likely reduce it's effectiveness.

[Yoshiyahu]

Great topic...Every one is different. You many have a carbon copy of the form, and drills but the way you apply your chi sau and gor sau will ultimately be different. Now i dont mean drills in chi sau. But i Mean free flowing chi sau drills.



When you utilize a technique from SLT or CK you will apply it different. You will apply in the way that works best for your body structure, your skill level and your understanding. That is how you can apply your WC also the type of person you fight will dictate how you utilize your wing chun!

My favor example is the "copy machine". No matter how good that you can learn from your previous generation. You are just a copy machine, no more and no less. For people who learns from you will have no difference from direct learning from your teacher. This to somebody may be good enough. You have "preserve" your art from the previous generation into the future generation. The only problem is that you have no contributation to your style. To somebody, "contributation" may be more important than "preservation".

Old Chinese saying said, "When geese flies over the sky, it's voice will be left. When a tiger dies, it's skin will be left. When a person dies, his name will be remembered." Without "contributation", your name will not be remembered in the future generation.

[Phil Redmond]

Vanity is a fatal flaw in human nature. We tend to consider ourselves smarter than our ancestors. That we today do things better than they did them. Of course we have more advanced technology and materials, but there are some things we simply can not improve upon. Some things have already been worked down to a science. I think Wing Chun is such a thing. Anything you change will likely reduce it's effectiveness.

Speaking of vanity. That was a vain statement. People are stronger, faster, live longer that our ancestors. Records are being broken all the time. We have access to media to see styles of martial arts from all over the world. Whereas the martial artists in ancient times had limited knowledge of martial arts from other regions of their own countries and less about martial arts worldwide. Any martial art that doesn't evolve will die. The idea that WC's effectiveness will be reduced with evolution is simply whack. We are the laughing stock of the martial arts community at large because of that type of thinking.

[Vajramusti]

One thing that really stands out when people post here is that some people are forward looking and "progressive" in their view of WC, while others are more conservative and look backwards to their Si-fus, Si-gungs and their lineages for authoritative answers and validation.

To those who look forward, WC provides a conceptual framework and foundation , but the system is ever evolving and adapting. If the past generations were good, then future generations have the potential to be better ...if they are willing to learn, adapt and evolve. They view the "system" of Wing Chun as one might view a mechanical design, such as that of a race car. With every generation come technological advances that, if properly utilized, can potentially improve the car's performance. So with Wing Chun, each generation stands on the shoulders of the previous one, and has the potential to go even further granted the talent, intelligence, and drive.

On the other hand, there are a great many conservatives who place primacy in the wisdom of the great masters of the past. There is a sense that the current generation is but a shadow of those who went before us. And the best of our generation are those who most faithfully seek to reproduce the skills of the authentic masters of the past.

From my perspective, there is some merit in each position, so I listen to the arguments of both. Which viewpoint do you favor?

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Conservative- progressive are just labels. I could say that I am both conservative and progressive. Conservative: constant analysis and continuous understanding of the fundamental and natural principles and concepts of wing chun.And- a sense of wonder about
very good wing chun- specially coming through Ip Man. Not just sifu-sez- testable concepts and principles.Have not been disappointed thus far.Controlling the ego- makes you continue learning.


Progressive- dealing with others do and understanding and adapting to/dealing with new kinds of situations, contexts and styles.Progressive(exploring) in also comparing and contrasting wing chun concepts with sound concepts of structure and martial motion.

Thankful that good wing chun came my way-yuanfen serendipity. If Mao didn't take over China
and if good sifus didnt teach non Chinese- wing chun would not have come my way. Ip man was quite guarded about who he really taught wing chun in depth.Disappointed in the lack of quality control and lack of humility in the spreading of wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Grumblegeezer]

My favor example is the "copy machine". No matter how good that you can learn from your previous generation. You are just a copy machine...

This is the problem with taking an extremely conservative approach. It's like the three-layer carbon copy form I mailed off to my instructor last Friday. The original, top layer was very clear. The next layer lost some resolution but was perfectly acceptable. But, the bottom layer was so faint and uneven, that is was not even legible and needed to be re-touched by hand.

The same thing can happen when martial arts are passed down. Even if it were possible for a style to be "perfect" no Sifu passes on everything they know perfectly. And no student can perfectly duplicate everything their Sifu teaches them. So if the student can never add to, adjust, or as with the carbon copy case described above, "re-touch" what he has learned, then the system will be degraded with each generation.

On the other hand, the great masters of Wing Chun's history each made changes to the system, sometimes adding things, other times simplifying and streamlining the style.