My main point

[ShaolinDan]

There is a difference between hearing someone say "this move can be useful for this situation because of these attributes" and hearing "it's this, my teacher said so." The latter is not discussion. I'm not talking about that.

Which makes for the last part. You say trolls kill technical discussion. That's my line.

If a seasoned, well centered mma guy cannot be expected to ignore someone who is adding nothing to a technical discussion, then that same seasoned, well centered mma guy cannot talk about thick skin with a progressive kung fu guy who gets called a fraud because someone else thinks iron hand makes you impervious. Totally, totally different realm of inappropriate.

Yes. QFT and all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every Wednesday and Sunday since you and I were at Bullshido, three minute rounds, thirty second breaks, for two hours, working solely using my style and adding in moves to test, phasing ones out, over and over. That was not my sole training time, but it was four hours every week in which I was specifically testing people's approaches to the style I do, and every approach gets covered. I have varied partners who are all as experienced as me in various styles, most have more ground experience. They do what they like, I'm working my system.

That is what I have always advocated: CROSS TESTING.
Nothing is more crucial in the development of a fighting system.

[Robinhood]

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;

sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...

Forms are for beginning level students, if you every get past the forms and reach higher levels, the rules change and don't apply or make much difference.

[Taixuquan99]

The reason I always encourage, which often gets misconstrued as demanding, that people post videos is because no matter what you say or describe words can be misintepreted, actions can not. If someone makes claims or even describes a technique that sounds dubious, a video would often clear up what they were saying as perhaps they did not word it right.

For this reason, I post some of my personal training videos, videos of me training my students and so forth. I do this not to try and show off or act like I am better or more skilled, but to learn from others or teach and give ideas to others. Is this not the point of a Kung Fu forum, to discuss and SHOW ideas in regards to training Kung Fu.

I think this is something we should all think about when someone says post a vid of you doing it, and honestly, if you can't back it up with that then STFU!!!

The techniques I intend to put up, especially the explanatory part, is intended to be along the same lines. I say I know a style of kung fu, and I'll show what that knowledge is. It also is inarguably kung fu, will probably resemble someone else's techniques, and so might be useful, plus I might(maybe) get useful feedback.

[Taixuquan99]

Has this become the catchall thread? Awesome.

[taai gihk yahn]

Forms are for beginning level students, if you every get past the forms and reach higher levels, the rules change and don't apply or make much difference.

Ummm - no duh...but that has nothing to do with what I posted

Or r u just following me around the forum now trying to enlighten me?

[Taixuquan99]

Bruce Lee's shrunken testicle!

[Taixuquan99]

Okay, irony, thanks for ruining the thread.

[Hardwork108]

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;

May I hypothesise that the "hollow" fist methodology is a valid one, but was not taught commonly (or openly), but was brought into use to accommodate the aristocrats with their long finger nails?

The reason for this hypothesis is that, when I first started Wing Chun, sifu used to teach the normal fully closed fist. As I advanced, he told me about the hollow fist way, that are used for "soft" penetrative strikes.

sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...

Perhaps, but sometimes further research is needed to gain further clarifications.

[Frost]

I have this on direct authority via my teacher's teacher's teacher who studied directly w Yang Lu Chan, but learned an older version of the form that has, among other things, jumping kicks, low sweeps, entire techniques not seen in the "standard" Yang 108 form and subtle aspects of other techniques that make total sense in terms of fighting, that when u take them out makes them more "push hands" friendly; incidentally, we also do our fist held fully closed; this is an "extra-familial" lineage that did not get sanitized the way 99.9% of Yang style was after Yang Cheng Fu; so this information is not coming from any BJJ linneage - it's about as authentic TCMA as you can get;

also, it wasn't bec they were lazy, it's bec they had long finger nails, and therefore could not hold a fist tightly; so YLC catered to this, and over time, an "explanation" arose that justified its use;

sometimes TCMA does develop due to factors other than martial efficacy...

the old frame yang tai chi i did also had jumping kicks, low stances sweeps and was much more chen like..............just sayin

[taai gihk yahn]

May I hypothesise that the "hollow" fist methodology is a valid one, but was not taught commonly (or openly), but was brought into use to accommodate the aristocrats with their long finger nails?

hey, u can hypothesize all u like, go for it; I'm just giving u what has been passed on to me from what in my estimation is a reliable source as regards the taiji usage of the fist as such; but as far as an evidentiary basis for ur hypothesis, u don't see it in the source material (Chen), and the idea that an "authentic TCMA" teacher would teach a not openly taught technique to accommodate his students' cosmetic predilections is pretty far-fetched

The reason for this hypothesis is that, when I first started Wing Chun, sifu used to teach the normal fully closed fist. As I advanced, he told me about the hollow fist way, that are used for "soft" penetrative strikes.

if ur WC sifu has his own ideas about it, that's fine - maybe WC developed it independently and has found some utility in it; of course, one can also hypothesize that he got the idea from a taiji guy who had learned it as such and was given the party line explanation about it, and adopted it as such

this is not to say that the idea of holding the fist in a somewhat "relaxed" habitus and then hardening it at the moment of contact is not something taught or invalid - I am talking about the specific configuration of the fist held hollow throughout pre-strike and on contact

Perhaps, but sometimes further research is needed to gain further clarifications.

well, my 'research" is pretty much as direct to the source as one is going to get as regards this particular point;

[taai gihk yahn]

the old frame yang tai chi i did also had jumping kicks, low stances sweeps and was much more chen like..............just sayin

nice - what was the linneage? this is ours:
http://users.erols.com/dantao/koo.html

[Hardwork108]

hey, u can hypothesize all u like, go for it;

My mistake, I should have said "hypothesize" as opposed to plain hypothesize.

I'm just giving u what has been passed on to me from what in my estimation is a reliable source as regards the taiji usage of the fist as such; but as far as an evidentiary basis for ur hypothesis, u don't see it in the source material (Chen), and the idea that an "authentic TCMA" teacher would teach a not openly taught technique to accommodate his students' cosmetic predilections is pretty far-fetched

Perhaps the students being powerful aristocrats may have had a bearing on this, if my "hypothesis" is accurate?

if ur WC sifu has his own ideas about it, that's fine -

My understanding is that is how he was taught.

maybe WC developed it independently and has found some utility in it;

That can count as a valid hypothesis, but I believe it is not just a Wing Chun thing.

of course, one can also hypothesize that he got the idea from a taiji guy who had learned it as such and was given the party line explanation about it, and adopted it as such

Firstly, that is not what I am told. Secondly, why would someone so funtional minded as him, adopt something that is "fantasy" and does not work, as to my recollection he has no students who are long fingernailed Chinese aristocrats..

this is not to say that the idea of holding the fist in a somewhat "relaxed" habitus and then hardening it at the moment of contact is not something taught or invalid - I am talking about the specific configuration of the fist held hollow throughout pre-strike and on contact

Good point.

The fist is tightened on contact, but before hand the fist is MORE than just relaxed, it is hollow.

Also, a (non-WC and Chow Gar) master under whom I did not train told me once that there was no need to "tighten" on impact. This sounded strange to me, until he hit my fully tensed and prepared torso with his "untightened" fist, with a strike that looked effortless, and not only did the force go through but I would not be surprised that the window curtains behind me felt it too...LOL. It was painful and made me dizzy.

What does the master do then? He asks me if I am OK, then soon gathers that I am not, he lightly "taps" my solar plexus with his open palm (I was expecting a downward massage) a couple of times, and I feel 100% OK, within a second or so. Strange, I tell you.....I play that event back and fourth in my head once in while to figure it out better.....