The Jews of China

[ghostexorcist]

I'm not sure how many people on here are interested in history, but I wanted to share the first half of an article that I wrote on the Kaifeng Jews of China:

http://historical-research-society.b...religious.html

There are two main theories as to why this particular group of Jews originally came to China. The first is that they arrived during the Han Dynasty (206 BCE-220 CE) as religious refugees fleeing persecution. The second is that they arrived during the Song Dynasty (960-1279 CE) as merchants. The first half of the article explains the evidence for the Han entry, and then it rips the evidence to shreds on a point by point basis. I also make reference to the Jews' odd Confucian and Daoist-influenced version of Judaism, Alexander the Great, and China's invasion of a (possibly Greek) territory in ancient Central Asia to acquire "heavenly horses."

It' seems like a long article, but please keep in mind that the annotated references start about half way down the webpage.

[Syn7]

I'm not sure how many people on here are interested in history, but I wanted to share the first half of an article that I wrote on the Kaifeng Jews of China:

http://historical-research-society.b...religious.html

There are two main theories as to why this particular group of Jews originally came to China. The first is that they arrived during the Han Dynasty (206 BCE-220 CE) as religious refugees fleeing persecution. The second is that they arrived during the Song Dynasty (960-1279 CE) as merchants. The first half of the article explains the evidence for the Han entry, and then it rips the evidence to shreds on a point by point basis. I also make reference to the Jews' odd Confucian and Daoist-influenced version of Judaism, Alexander the Great, and China's invasion of a (possibly Greek) territory in ancient Central Asia to acquire "heavenly horses."

It' seems like a long article, but please keep in mind that the annotated references start about half way down the webpage.

are they still semetic or have they been completely overrun by han genes at this point???

if they went all over europe thru the northern passages and the gibralter area then it doesnt seem so far fetched that some would have gone south and east as well...

have there been any genetic tests done on any of these people who claim lineage? any hard science here or is it all speculation???

looks interesting, i'll copy it and file it away and put it on my "to read" list...


when will you drop the second half? coz im not even gonna bother starting till i have it all...

[ghostexorcist]

are they still semetic or have they been completely overrun by han genes at this point???

if they went all over europe thru the northern passages and the gibralter area then it doesnt seem so far fetched that some would have gone south and east as well...

have there been any genetic tests done on any of these people who claim lineage? any hard science here or is it all speculation???

looks interesting, i'll copy it and file it away and put it on my "to read" list...


when will you drop the second half? coz im not even gonna bother starting till i have it all...

They look like regular Chinese people now. However, Jesuit records from the Ming Dynasty talk of how the Chinese Jews had longer noses and deeper set eyes than their full Chinese neighbors. Centuries of intermarrying with the Chinese has washed away what might be considered Semitic traits.

The currently accepted theory is that they originated from Persia. This is because their religious documents were written in Judeo-Persian, an offshoot of New Persian which developed on the trade routes of Central Asia in the 8th century. Plus, Jesuits active in the 18th century noted that they were able to communicate in broken Persian. I know of one Israeli Geneticist that was scheduled to do some DNA testing, but the Chinese government was giving him problems.

I actually have the full article written. I only published the first half because the online journal that I originally submitted it to suggested that I cut it in half. I posted it on my neglected history research blog because non-members of the history forum that hosts the journal can't see that section of the website. I will send you the full article when I get a chance to clean it up a little bit. It is currently formatted oddly for the aforementioned forum. It may take a week or so because I'm swamped with school work at the moment. I will most likely expand the second half by a couple of paragraphs before I publish it online early next year.

Here is a scan of some pages from the community's 17th century memorial book of the dead. I'm sure others will find it interesting because it lists both the Hebrew and Chinese names. The weird symbol is simply a water mark from the hosting institution (here in Cincinnati):

http://huc.edu/libraries/exhibits/rb...s/yt00042t.jpg

[ghostexorcist]

Check your messages.

[Taixuquan99]

I'm looking forward to reading it!

On the topic of whether they show genetic markers of being semitic(probably not the proper phrasing), I read an article a number of years back talking about groups that claimed, over the centuries, to be related to the Generals of the Mongol Khans, living in areas far from Mongolia, and it turned out that for the most part, they were exactly that, despite any later interbreeding, they had definite markers.

Doesn't have much to do with anything, but I suspect, in most cases, ethnic groups are less likely to hold to a story that they are different than the local norm where it isn't true.

[Jimbo]

Many years ago, I remember reading an article about scientists who believe there is a Japan-Jewish connection, too. They pointed to the Star of David appearing on some ancient temples, I believe in Kyoto(?). Also, they mentioned a possibility that the Ainu, the original inhabitants of Japan, may have been old enemies of the Jews from before either group entered Japan, for various reasons that were mentioned.

The latter part I don't know about, but I'm open to the possibility that ancient Jews could have traveled as far as Japan and become intermixed into the population over time. I've read that the Ainu themselves have DNA evidence of connections to the Andaman islands/India, Tibet, Siberia, etc. I also heard speculation that the Ainu may have also come from the Middle East/Western Asia. In the past, many scientists assumed the Ainu were Caucasian due to different characteristics, often including wavy hair, facial structure, body hair, body size, and sometimes even green eyes, but them being European has been pretty much discounted. Though a small number of 'pure' Ainu still live on Hokkaido, for the most part, they've become intermixed into the general Japanese population.

I also saw a special on cable about the ancient Americas, where many Cherokee believe themselves descended from Jews, and not ancient people from northeast Asia crossing the ancient land bridge at the Bering Strait, and they presented evidence to back up their beliefs. I believe the history of the world is far different, and had far more travel/exchange/intermixing/settling than what is generally taught.

Anyway, sorry for drifting so far off the subject, and thanks for the article!

[ghostexorcist]

Many years ago, I remember reading an article about scientists who believe there is a Japan-Jewish connection, too. They pointed to the Star of David appearing on some ancient temples, I believe in Kyoto(?). Also, they mentioned a possibility that the Ainu, the original inhabitants of Japan, may have been old enemies of the Jews from before either group entered Japan, for various reasons that were mentioned.

[...]

I also saw a special on cable about the ancient Americas, where many Cherokee believe themselves descended from Jews, and not ancient people from northeast Asia crossing the ancient land bridge at the Bering Strait, and they presented evidence to back up their beliefs. I believe the history of the world is far different, and had far more travel/exchange/intermixing/settling than what is generally taught.

Anyway, sorry for drifting so far off the subject, and thanks for the article!

I wouldn't be surprised if a few Japanese people had Semitic blood in them because Jews and Muslims were great merchants who traveled all over the world. However, I would disagree with those people who think the Japanese culture was spawned by some lost tribe of Israel. Others have even tried to label the famous Song Dynasty Judge Bao Zheng a Jew because his home in Kaifeng has 6-pointed stars in the lattice work. It is simply a geometric design comprised of two triangles. Even a child doodling could accidentally draw this shape. Most importantly, Jews do not have the market cornered on the 6-pointed star. For instance, the Yantra of the Hindu elephant god Ganesh uses the design:



The idea of Native Americans possibly being Jewish goes back to the 16th century. Biblical scholars of the time were trying to tie all of the world's different ethnic groups and cultures back to the Bible. The way they connected Native Americans was by suggesting that they were descended from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel:

"The first published attribution of a Lost Tribes origin for the Indians appeared in Joannes Federicus Luminus’s De extreme Dei iudicio et idorum vacatione (Antwerp: Antonium Tilenium Brechtanum, 1567). The conviction that the Amerindians were Jews of the Lost Tribes then spread quickly throughout the Western world, in time including among its proponents such men as John Dury, Thomas Thorowgood, John Eliot, Roger Williams, William Penn, and, later, an array of commentators on the Book of Mormon. There were also Pedro Simon and Antonio Vazques de Espinosa, who narrowed down the line of descent of the Amerindians to only one of the Lost Tribes—Issachar. The American Israelitism thesis was not, however, shared by all scholars. Hamon L’Estrange, for example, objected to it strongly, constructing as one argument against its legitimacy an Aristotelian syllogism of bemusing dimensions. Everyone knows, L’Estrange observed (in his Americans No Iewes [London:Henry Seile, 1652]), first, that Jews are forbidden to marry harlots and, second, that all Indian women are harlots. Whence it follows, he triumphantly declared, the Indians can under no circumstances be Jews."

You can read about it in this interesting paper:

Pollak, Michael. “The Revelation of a Jewish Presence in Seventeenth-Century China: Its Impact on Western Messianic Thought.” In The Jews of China: Volume I – Historical and Comparative Perspectives, ed. Jonathan Goldstein and Frank Joseph Shulman, 50-70. Armonk, NY: M.E. Sharpe, 1999.

[mawali]

Many years ago, I remember reading an article about scientists who believe there is a Japan-Jewish connection, too. They pointed to the Star of David appearing on some ancient temples, I believe in Kyoto(?). Also, they mentioned a possibility that the Ainu, the original inhabitants of Japan, may have been old enemies of the Jews from before either group entered Japan, for various reasons that were mentioned.

The latter part I don't know about, but I'm open to the possibility that ancient Jews could have traveled as far as Japan and become intermixed into the population over time. I've read that the Ainu themselves have DNA evidence of connections to the Andaman islands/India, Tibet, Siberia, etc. I also heard speculation that the Ainu may have also come from the Middle East/Western Asia. In the past, many scientists assumed the Ainu were Caucasian due to different characteristics, often including wavy hair, facial structure, body hair, body size, and sometimes even green eyes, but them being European has been pretty much discounted. Though a small number of 'pure' Ainu still live on Hokkaido, for the most part, they've become intermixed into the general Japanese population.

I also saw a special on cable about the ancient Americas, where many Cherokee believe themselves descended from Jews, and not ancient people from northeast Asia crossing the ancient land bridge at the Bering Strait, and they presented evidence to back up their beliefs. I believe the history of the world is far different, and had far more travel/exchange/intermixing/settling than what is generally taught.

Anyway, sorry for drifting so far off the subject, and thanks for the article!

Historical reference(s) are often faked to support and utilize subterfuge to obfuscate and misalign the ignorant, who would never have a clue anyway! WHy do I say this?

a. The svastika has always been a Hindu/preDravidian symbol misappropriated by Nazis to the extent that peoples' only knowledge of it is Nazi propaganda

b. There is no place in Africa call sub Saharan Africa. The term began to be appropriated, to now become part of lexicon to ritualize whatever its purpose was intended, meaning one can say a lie enought times that it become 'truth' to the misinformed.

c. Even with DNA evidence of Jewish heritage (Cohanim to the highest degree), the Lemba are still accorded the status of 2nd class citizenry despite holding on to relics of a Jewish past. That being said (RE; Kaifeng Jews), DNA will still shjow that recent 'mixed' ancestry noting that phenoptype does not always indicate similarity or association to a specific group. With the Ainu, to say they are X is to diminish their heritage. They are a aboriginal group per isolation and environment therefore were immune to the various migrations that took place in the Japanese hinterland. They kept their ****geneity!

d. Why would the Ainu be enemies of Jews? There is no historical record, whether implied or explicit WHILE saying that outsiders who have sworn that there was never a connection between Jews and who we call Lemba today!

e. Cherockee having Jewish origins is FAR FETCHED. But what is our definition? Are we talikg exposure to Jewish ritual elements or actual DNA (MtDNA and Y)? It would make sense and has, that Mexicans of Northern Mexico (now SW USA) shown that they do possess DNA showing they were Jews who became Catholics to escape persecution and ended up in USA. It was also incidental that some fo the females had a type of breast cancer that only presented itself in 'Jewish' women hence the interesting find.

Good initial post!

[ShaolinDan]

d. Why would the Ainu be enemies of Jews? There is no historical record, whether implied or explicit WHILE saying that outsiders who have sworn that there was never a connection between Jews and who we call Lemba today!

well...we do sing 'Die Ainu' every Passover.

[ghostexorcist]

well...we do sing 'Die Ainu' every Passover.

(Punchline drum roll) "Thank you, I'll be here all week. Tip your waitress!"

[ShaolinDan]

Just couldn't help myself.
Nice article/thread, ghost.

[mickey]

Greetings,

What is both frustrating and annoying about the scholarship is the use of the term "Jew", which is a term that came into use in the 16th century. If they existed in China long before that time, what did they call themselves back then? I am not kicking dirt. I want to know.

mickey

[ghostexorcist]

Greetings,

What is both frustrating and annoying about the scholarship is the use of the term "Jew", which is a term that came into use in the 16th century. If they existed in China long before that time, what did they call themselves back then? I am not kicking dirt. I want to know.


mickey

I'm happy to answer that. The earliest mentions of Jews in China come from the Tang Dynasty. I don't have my sources in front of me right now, so I can't give you a specific answer for the nomenclature used at that time. I suspect it is close to that used during the Yuan. What follows is what I have previously posted on another forum:

There are no mentions of "Kaifeng Jews" in Yuan records, although they do mention Jews in general on several occasions. The words used to designate them are actually transliterations of the New Persian word "Djuhud". Middle Persian pronounces this "Yahut," which corresponds to the Hebrew "Yehudi" and the Arabic "Yahud". The oldest mention of Jews in Yuan records comes from a January 27, 1280 CE decree by Kublai Khan prohibiting the ritual slaughter of sheep. It refers to them as 朮忽回回每 (Zhuhu huihui mei) (Kublin, Studies of the Chinese Jews, p. 68). Here is a copy of the decree:



Here are more names from later Yuan records:

朮忽 (zhuhu)

Edict: April 19, 1329 - Taxation of Nestorians, Jews, and Muslims

Edict: May 23 - June 20, 1354 - Summons of wealthy Muslims and Jews to the capital for military service (Kublin, p. 69)

________________________


竹忽 (zhuhu)

Edict: July 7 - August 4, 1320 - Taxation of Muslims, Nestorians, Jews, and Dasmans

主吾 (zhuwu)

Suggestion by an official to the government: November 24, 1340 - Forbid the Dasmans, Muslims, Jews, and other foreigners from marrying a paternal cousin (Kublin, p. 70)

________________________

主鶻回回 (zhuhu huihui)

Book: 1360 - States the Officers of the Hangzhou Sugar Bureau where wealthy Jews and Muslims (Kublin, pp. 70-71)

I hope this satisfies your curiosity. Feel free to ask any more questions if you've got some.

[mickey]

Hi ghostexcorcist,

It does to some degree. The term suggests that Muslims may have been there as well. And thank you for responding.

mickey

[Syn7]

I wouldn't be surprised if a few Japanese people had Semitic blood in them because Jews and Muslims were great merchants who traveled all over the world. However, I would disagree with those people who think the Japanese culture was spawned by some lost tribe of Israel. Others have even tried to label the famous Song Dynasty Judge Bao Zheng a Jew because his home in Kaifeng has 6-pointed stars in the lattice work. It is simply a geometric design comprised of two triangles. Even a child doodling could accidentally draw this shape. Most importantly, Jews do not have the market cornered on the 6-pointed star. For instance, the Yantra of the Hindu elephant god Ganesh uses the design:



The idea of Native Americans possibly being Jewish goes back to the 16th century. Biblical scholars of the time were trying to tie all of the world's different ethnic groups and cultures back to the Bible. The way they connected Native Americans was by suggesting that they were descended from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel:

"The first published attribution of a Lost Tribes origin for the Indians appeared in Joannes Federicus Luminus’s De extreme Dei iudicio et idorum vacatione (Antwerp: Antonium Tilenium Brechtanum, 1567). The conviction that the Amerindians were Jews of the Lost Tribes then spread quickly throughout the Western world, in time including among its proponents such men as John Dury, Thomas Thorowgood, John Eliot, Roger Williams, William Penn, and, later, an array of commentators on the Book of Mormon. There were also Pedro Simon and Antonio Vazques de Espinosa, who narrowed down the line of descent of the Amerindians to only one of the Lost Tribes—Issachar. The American Israelitism thesis was not, however, shared by all scholars. Hamon L’Estrange, for example, objected to it strongly, constructing as one argument against its legitimacy an Aristotelian syllogism of bemusing dimensions. Everyone knows, L’Estrange observed (in his Americans No Iewes [London:Henry Seile, 1652]), first, that Jews are forbidden to marry harlots and, second, that all Indian women are harlots. Whence it follows, he triumphantly declared, the Indians can under no circumstances be Jews."

You can read about it in this interesting paper:

Pollak, Michael. “The Revelation of a Jewish Presence in Seventeenth-Century China: Its Impact on Western Messianic Thought.” In The Jews of China: Volume I – Historical and Comparative Perspectives, ed. Jonathan Goldstein and Frank Joseph Shulman, 50-70. Armonk, NY: M.E. Sharpe, 1999.

i dont think there is a huge jewish connection to the native americans. i can see there being some blood tho... just think about it... as man migrates north east to the bering(sp?) straight, its not unreasonable to believe that some of the clans that went north from africa would have eventually turned east and met up with the mongoloids going to the americas... its a fact that native dna is mongoloid with a dash of caucazoid, and that caucazoid could be jewish. i dunno... what i do know is that this mystery will be solved genetically, not thru archeology and anthropology... those are simply guide posts to tell us who to test and where to cross reference... god bless computers aye, imagine having to do that on paper... uuugghh...

sorry for my ramble, havent slept yet and im slightly blunted...

oh, i answered ur PM... thanx...