Why Doesn't TCMA Include Ground Fighting and What are you going to do about it?

[ginosifu]

When I first started looking for martial art schools, my only thought was to become like that TV character from the show "Kung Fu" with David Carridine. I had no idea about grappling in MA other than the wrestling I had been doing.

I did Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Kun Tao. The Kun Tao was the closest thing to grappling, but it just was not my bag. The others were only stand up styles. When I met my current teacher the first thing I noticed is that we were doing SC right off the bat.

Northern Shaolin and Hung Gar both have some ground work but they definately are different looking the BJJ and MMA ground fighting. They are also not quite as extensive as them also. Besides the ground work they have a grappling style called Chin Na (Kum Na in Cantonese). Northern Shaolin has an extensive Chin Na program which combined with it's ground work can be enough for the average person looking for self defense.

With the skills I have accumulated over the years I have no reason to go out and pick up any BJJ or MMA ground work. What I do now:

I start kids off by teaching them High school wrestling and Shuai Chiao. As their skill level picks up and their level of control gets good, then I start them on sparring and San Shou (all during this they are learning basic kung fu skills like punching and kicking and stance work etc etc.).

Teens and Young adults learn Kung Fu basics and Shaui Chiao. They have the option to go and do High School wrestling. As their skill increases they start Sparring and San Shou.

Usually all the adults stick to kung fu basics and self defense. Not every adult likes to roll around. Females and older folk are not likely to join my Shuai Chiao, San Shou or Wrestling classes.

ginosifu

[Lebaufist]

Does it really have to be an either/or proposition? Neither side does the same job in the same way. I wouldn't go to a bjj school for their striking tips. And vice verse.

My kung fu covers my strikes, kicks, locks, throws, mobility and range. That's what most kung fu wants to do, to hold the line and get the dominant position. But if my line is breached and I find myself on the other end, I'll try to get out as well I can, and it won't be a CMA inspired technique necessarily. There could be nuances in my choices of movement due to CMA. Perhaps paradigms not explored or accepted by the status quo. But my grappling will never be "pure" . I can't help but hit. Its in my DNA. For me, there are too many chances for a strike for me to ignore.

[PalmStriker]

Does it really have to be an either/or proposition? Neither side does the same job in the same way. I wouldn't go to a bjj school for their striking tips. And vice verse.

My kung fu covers my strikes, kicks, locks, throws, mobility and range. That's what most kung fu wants to do, to hold the line and get the dominant position. But if my line is breached and I find myself on the other end, I'll try to get out as well I can, and it won't be a CMA inspired technique necessarily. There could be nuances in my choices of movement due to CMA. Perhaps paradigms not explored or accepted by the status quo. But my grappling will never be "pure" . I can't help but hit. Its in my DNA. For me, there are too many chances for a strike for me to ignore.

Have to agree. If you're not a grappler/wrestler you are not going to be prone to accommodating your enemy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvFX...eature=related

[Ben Gash]

I started out doing Nogi BJJ, but I've been doing CSW for a while now. Went to the camp in OC this year, train with Erik when he's over here etc.
One thing I've found though is that if you have a decent knowledge of grappling, you can see it in the TCMA. People talk a lot about Ditang, but on both sides of the fence they're often misguided. If you view it through an understanding of open guard work though it all makes a lot of sense. CLF has 3 stances "pressing down horse" " kneeling down horse" and "leg scissors" which are kind of odd as standup stances, but do in fact cover all the common top positions on the ground!

[mickey]

Greetings,

The warrior approach to any newly established method is to fully assess it. And that may include studying it. That way you learn its strengths and weaknesses. This is how the warrior maintains his edge. This is how the teacher maintains the fighting viability of the style he teaches; and it is his RESPONSIBILITY to do so. It is pretty pathetic to say you have all you need if you do not know how to pull it together to keep from getting choked out. The Chinese martial arts were/are like that. In China they are studying Tae Kwon Do, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and they are not breaking with TRADITION by doing so.

I remember going to a martial arts supply store in NYC on the Deuce and the guy in the store was really excited by the new interest in grappling. I learned a lot just from that encounter about excelling in one's craft.

mickey

[mickey]

MORE,

In a post in another thread re grappling, I erred in citing cultural reasons as a reason why the grappling component was so absent in TCMA. I was wrong to write that. The techniques are there. You have to be able to see it. The active study of grappling helps highlight what was there all along.

mickey

[EarthDragon]

we must always remember that evloution IS life, what does not evolve dies.
This is the same for MA.
Its OK not to agree and be simple and basic minded...... heck people dont believe Darwin adn still call it a theory LOL, but whether you agree or not does not change the dynamics facts and natural progession of eveloment in everthing , so you either except it and include it in your learnings, teachings and paths or become well....a dinosaur

[Lebaufist]

The basic underlying argument is, Do you have to fight BJJ the BJJ way. I think it would do many a world of good to at least look in on what is being done and how you would at least TRY to gum up their entry or find a quick exit. Its being done in MMA all the time. Sure, many of those are experienced grapplers. But where is this other paradigm coming from? Not from grappling.

[Robinhood]

If you can't keep your balance and stay on your feet, then you need to learn to roll around on the ground, still it is more of a sport than a MA.

[Ben Gash]

If you can't keep your balance and stay on your feet, then you need to learn to roll around on the ground, still it is more of a sport than a MA.

I don't know where to begin with the wrongness of this.

[Frost]

The basic underlying argument is, Do you have to fight BJJ the BJJ way. I think it would do many a world of good to at least look in on what is being done and how you would at least TRY to gum up their entry or find a quick exit. Its being done in MMA all the time. Sure, many of those are experienced grapplers. But where is this other paradigm coming from? Not from grappling.

Its coming from strikers who understand that to use their game effectively they need to become very good at grappling but then adapt it to their goals, they might not be looking for submissions, holding position etc but you can be sure that they have extensive experience in these things, they have to in order to be able to nullify what’s being done to them

You might not have to fight BJJ the BJJ way, but if you don’t understand and have experience at what they do, you will get hurt if you try to stop them using strikes and a limited ground knowledge

In MMA you will find no one at a decent level who does not train straight submission grappling only at least a few days a week, be it BJJ or no gi BJJ as well as straight wrestling, the reason for this is obvious and should also explain why the approach you are talking about wont work

You can hit all you want, if you don’t train enough pure grappling to have the escapes down and the positions down you are going to get hurt when the BJJ guys decides to also hit back

[Phil Redmond]

Does Mantis have ground fighting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=bBJUcc8QCPk

[EarthDragon]

LOL Phil, apparently yes and by the looks of it he is the master. thanks fo the laugh so early in the day

[Lebaufist]

Its coming from strikers who understand that to use their game effectively they need to become very good at grappling

I don't agree at all. You don't have to be a BJJ BB to learn to stop a take down. Grappling hasn't cornered the market in mobility.

[Frost]

I don't agree at all. You don't have to be a BJJ BB to learn to stop a take down. Grappling hasn't cornered the market in mobility.

Nope but you do have to be a very good wrestler to stop the takedown, and have a ground game just in case you get taken down, by good I mean have trained wrestling heavily in your style and competed in grappling events, otherwise even good strikers will get destroyed against good grapplers, witness paul daley and dan hardy

By the way Best strikers in MMA,
Anderson silva, BJJ blackbelt, jose aldo, also BJJ blackbelt, machida BJJ blackbelt, shogun I could keep going but you get my point