Does the "Iron Shirt" or the "Iron Fist" training and technique work?

[Dale Dugas]

Right, Dale. Tax any system in the human body and it will respond by strengthening that same system, assuming it is healthy, oc.

Many old "kungs" are based on this simple truth. Body banging drills, conventional body mass strength trainings, etc.

The trick is in finding a way to tax the system in question without too much risk of permanent injury.

Very true, Shifu Patterson.

You have all these people who think the 72 Arts of Shaolin Book is real with all manner of training that would injure if not seriously damage your body.

Slow and steady wins the race.

[Hardwork108]

Well, I see you took out your "thank you for the video. it was interesting." comment while I was typing this, to which I was going to say; "Gawd! You haven't seen that before? It's ancient. That footage was shot in 1981!"

Anyways, that aside... I am referring to training deep connective layers through the discipline called "Shi Swei Jing" (Wash Marrow) as usually translated. CT runs through the entire body, in and around everything. The aspect of Shi Swei that uses incremental weight based training understands this. The more weight that is applied, the greater the "load" on the CT that runs from the privates up through the torso and beyond. Over time, this yields tremendous strength of this tissue.

The preparation work we do involves manifest intention in standing frames mostly with very slight actuation of movement, not yet real motion as would be perceived by the naked eye, but actuation of movement. This then engages these same deep layer connective tissues which is a skill we need to support large amounts of weight. It is not uncommon for practitioners like myself to routinely support 150 lbs. or more with this method.

But some people on this board do indeed get this. TGY comprehends this quite well in my humble opinion. He made an exceptional entry on the "key to internal" thread, page 9 near the bottom.

It's not mystical. It's practical. Just less common I reckon.

Thank you again Sifu Patterson. I see some parallels with the Chow Gar training and of course, there are some differences, but the essence of the methodology and what it strives to achieve is very much similar.

[taai gihk yahn]

Anyways, that aside... I am referring to training deep connective layers through the discipline called "Shi Swei Jing" (Wash Marrow) as usually translated. CT runs through the entire body, in and around everything. The aspect of Shi Swei that uses incremental weight based training understands this. The more weight that is applied, the greater the "load" on the CT that runs from the privates up through the torso and beyond. Over time, this yields tremendous strength of this tissue.

you speakin' ma language;
if you are not already familiar with Tom Myers work on anatomy trains (http://www.anatomytrains.com/), as well as the work of Stephen Levin, MD (http://www.biotensegrity.com/) and Donald Ingber, MD, PhD (http://www.childrenshospital.org/research/ingber/) on biotensegrity, I think you will enjoy it immensely...(the links to all of that stuff plus a lot of other neat things are here)
the whole thing about Iron Vest / Palm training makes perfect sense in context of tensegrity principles of continuous tension / discontinuous compression: when u stretch CT, it aligns along the vector of the force, increasing it's strength / resistance to tearing; when u compress it, it becomes discontinuous, dispersing the force over a wide area, again to minimize damage; Iron Vest / Palm training seems to make use of these properties, in effect enhancing the ability of CT to perform in this way (and, a note, I have only done IV / IP minimally in the past, I do not currently train it, so I am not speaking from direct personal experience in that specific regard, even though some of the qigong I do is a "health" version of this)

The preparation work we do involves manifest intention in standing frames mostly with very slight actuation of movement, not yet real motion as would be perceived by the naked eye, but actuation of movement. This then engages these same deep layer connective tissues which is a skill we need to support large amounts of weight. It is not uncommon for practitioners like myself to routinely support 150 lbs. or more with this method.

it SOUNDS like u guys r practicing what involves "pre-contraction" of deep spinal stabilizers, such as the multifidi muscles, which certainly do have relationships to the deep connective (non-contractile) tissue of the core (in fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere that there are fibers of the multifidi attaching directly to the outer dural membances at the lumbar region, but I have to go check that; I have def seen one study that links the sub-occipital musculature to the dura at the cranio-cervical junction though);

But some people on this board do indeed get this. TGY comprehends this quite well in my humble opinion. He made an exceptional entry on the "key to internal" thread, page 9 near the bottom.

thank you very much (again) for the acknowledgement; and let me just say that I write based on a combination of my personal experience and knowledge base that I have accumulated (and as u can tell from the links above, the people who have generated this knowledge are a lot smarter than I am or ever will be); my goal has been to describe these so called "indescribable" practices from a so-called "western" paradigm; my belief is that in doing so you a) demonstrate the universal "truth" of these practices and b) give people a more concrete means by which they can better judge if someone who is professing to know these practices really knows what they are talking about or is just spouting quasi-mystical Taoist terms to cover their own lack of knowledge;
most importantly, there is not a single thing I write that I consider above debate or critique: meaning that, I could well be totally wrong about it all - and if anyone wishes to point out specifically where I am in error - just provide a counter-argument with examples and I am all ears

It's not mystical. It's practical. Just less common I reckon.

exactly! in my field, many practitioners think a lot of the phenomenon they see patients experience during various types of hands-on therapy are "paranormal" - spontaneous body movement, emotional responses to treatment, rapid resolution of long-term symptoms seemingly "by magic", and they start getting into explanations about different energy fields, astral bodies, etc, etc - without realizing that all of these things are well within the bounds of normal human physiology - it's just that they are, as Mike succinctly puts it, "less common";

[taai gihk yahn]

awesome article related to this discussion:

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62438

[Drake]

Given that Sifu Dale could probably punch the head off of a rhinoceros, I tend to take his advice on these matters...

[Dale Dugas]

Thank you for the kind words.

[Drake]

Thank you for the kind words.

No, really... you probably could.

[Lee Chiang Po]

And that is why Iron Shirt is something I would take very little faith in. Now Iron Palm or Fist, that is a bit different. I once trained my hands to inflict maximum impact on a target, but I do not have the faith that any amount of training will prevent you from falling to a fierce punch. I can hit really hard. If I strike by surprise I can shove a sternum against the back bone, crushing and squishing anything in between. Lungs, heart, other little soft squishy things. It would kill you instantly almost. I would imagine a look of total surprise just before the lights went out.

[Dale Dugas]

right.

you can do that.

[IronFist]

The body can be toughened over time. Bones can become more dense from repeated impact (Google "Wolff's law"). This is the principle of how Iron Fist training works. By repeatedly hitting stuff with the fist, over time you are a) causing the bones to become more dense, b) increasing your pain tolerance c) increasing your confidence (knowing that you can hit without pain) and d) hopefully improving your structure so that you deliver solid blows.

It's the same thing that happens to Muay Thai guys' shins. They don't call it "iron shin" training specifically, but it's the same idea.

You can do it to the body, too, to an extent.

Forearms and shins basically work the same way as the fist: denser bones, increased pain tolerance and confidence.

Abs work kind of the same way, but there's no bone to condition. You can improve your pain tolerance and get your body more used to taking strikes, however. Houdini could do this. Don't be fooled, there's no mystic power involved. Your flexed abs are protecting you, not magic qi power.

Be aware of this. There are a lot of charlatans out there that want you to believe they have magic powers and some of them even believe they can teach you to develop the same magic powers. They do cool demos on stage like taking sledgehammer blows to the stomach or laying on a bed of nails and using qi power to explain it away. In truth, all of these techniques are done through proper application of physics, physical conditioning, and leverage.

Most of these tricks have been explained on this forum before. Long poles are broken on the arms well past the middle point, so it breaks because of where the fulcrum is, not because there is qi protecting the guys arm.

Sledgehammers are absorbed by the abs because the guy is flexing his abs really tight and has conditioned his body to take the blow (an impressive feat in itself, no idea why people have to try and make it mystic), not because he is circulating his qi.

Concrete slabs being broken on the head/stomach/chest/wherever by some other dude with a sledgehammer are also mostly physics with a bit of physical conditioning thrown in, not magic qi power.

Spears broken on the throat is a physics trick, not a magic ability.

Etc.

So the answer is yes, Iron Fist and Iron Shirt "work." You can condition your body to take a significant amount of damage compared to what an unconditioned body can take. Just don't let yourself get mislead by a lot of the BS that's out there. It's all physical conditioning, and the onus of proof is on the person claiming otherwise to prove that what they are doing cannot be replicated by physics, physical conditioning, and proper body mechanics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is nothing special or unique about forging the body or its weapons.
Every system of combat has methods to do just that.
EVERY system.
What makes the TCMA "special" is, like Dale said "slow and steady wins the race".
The TCMA methods are slower, more methodical and, IMO, far "healthier" than those of other systems I have been exposed to:
The various japanese and okinawan methods.
The Thai methods
The western methods.
I don't have any experience in the Indian methods so I can comment on them.
There is nothing mystical about this training and I have seen far more effective iron body OUTSIDE of those claiming it is "internal training".
Because I am a "dynamic person" I tend to favour the methods that are more dynamic, that is NOT to say that the more "static" methods don't have merit, they are just simply "not my thing".

[Dale Dugas]

Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.

[Mike Patterson]

Mike, Do you have any connection to 天斩门(Tian Zhan Men) or 霆斩门(Ting Zhan Men)?

I do not recognize these two schools, John. So if we are connected, I am unaware of such a connection.

[Mike Patterson]

Sledgehammers are absorbed by the abs because the guy is flexing his abs really tight and has conditioned his body to take the blow (an impressive feat in itself, no idea why people have to try and make it mystic)

I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for MAYBE the above statement. I specifically said that what we do is not mystical, it's practical, just less common.

But are you trying to imply that this is just regular ab work? Hanging, supporting and swinging 150 lbs. from your junk is hardly in the realm of ordinary ab work and/or conditioning. And it DOES require special training.

Oh, and as a disclaimer: Don't try this at home, folks. You DO NEED someone qualified to teach you this method or you risk serious, and very personal injury.

[Mike Patterson]

Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.

Right again, Dale. The deep body layers have to be stimulated in some way. Simply loading the external muscles, no matter how you do it, won't yield the same results. Although I have met some very well conditioned folks that approach things in that way. Our way is to load every layer systematically and it starts with the CT.