Define Sticking

[JPinAZ]

You don't stick for the whole exchange, its a brief moment in time where you stick rather than letting your opponent dis-engage.
..........
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

I agree 100% with this statement. Haha, sometimes I word things a lot less simply that I could

[YouKnowWho]

Sticking is not just a wing chun concept, exactly the same principle exists in most other Chinese Martial Arts. Tai chi and Northern Praying Mantis for example.

You don't stick for the whole exchange, its a brief moment in time where you stick rather than letting your opponent dis-engage.

Agree 100% there.

- Stick, and build a bridge,
- "tuck" your opponent's arm in a temporary place that will not give you any problem when you move in,
- destroy that bridge, and
- enter.

The sticking concept can even used in sword fight.

- Your sword touch your opponent's sword.
- You press his sword to the other side.
- You slide your sword along his sword,
- move in, and
- cut his head off.

[lance]

By now, most of you, if you've read any of my recent posts, should have a somewhat clear understanding of the way in which I understand "To Stick". So I would like to know how others may have their understanding since this forum seems to be largely void of talk about the foundational skill that WC is based off of.

So what is sticking to you?

WC1277 . YouKnowWho is right about sticking , to me when you stick to your opponent ' s body , you know where he is because you can feel him . But the minute you don ' t feel his body what do think really happens ? Think about it .

[Yoshiyahu]

Video check it out!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orG1d0d7gq8

see how he sticks close?


Okay my wording is off you are correct. When I type alot i place a word like Hand/Sau and use in the connontation that is entire hand from finger tip to elbow...kinda of like cubit. Yes i agree with bridging from wrist, hands, and even elbow so to speak. But my definition of sticking is not merely grasping arm. Its not really touching your arm or holding your arm. My definition of sticking is as you put it briefly...

if I hit him, he's falling back and off balance, I just fill space and hit until either he's down, or the space gets refilled by him. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Imagine if you were at studio laying down some tracks. There was a sound missing...or space that needed to be filled. You need to stick something there to close the gap. That is what I mean by sticking.

Sticking can be with or with out the bridge. The bridge is for control. Sticking is more than a bridge. It is done with a bridge and it also done with striking. But you don't always have to have your hand out waiting for contact to stick. Thats all I am saying. When you fill the empty space with attacks an finish off your opponent so he cant react you are sticking. Sticking to his centerline, sticking to his structure, sticking to his center of gravity. You are sticking to him like glue.

Have you ever heard a person say the other guy he was fighting was on him like glue?

That is what I ultimately mean by sticking. Just because there is no bridge doesn't mean there is no contact. Remember rush in on loss of contact right?

well if your plummering his face there is no loss of contact?

No i think we disagreeing for not...because what you are saying that you do is also apart of sticking...even when you break the bridge!! Because you still have contact? Your on him like white on rice!

Did you read a dang thing I said?? when did I ever say my view of sticking is merely touching his arms for sake of touching his arms?? Quite the opposite, and I even went as far to say that sticking for the sake of sticking is chasing hands and IMO very wrong. Seriously, I'm trying to give you a chance here, but you still can't even read what I write!

Again, please read this carefully (and also reread my previous posts), my idea of chi is, I chi if I have to - if no chi, hit! (something you seemed to have agreed with me saying in the past...)

And Again, I only stick when I am forced to deal with something that is impeeding my fwd progress. My opponent does something that I have to react to by controlling/sticking to the bridge. Whether I use gate theory to clear the obstruction, or box theroy, or something else. And, if I still need to controll my opponent's COG/facing while I strike, then by all means I still might stick to a bridge while I hit to keep control.
BUT, if I hit him, he's falling back and off balance, I just fill space and hit until either he's down, or the space gets refilled by him. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Sticking is only a way to cause a distortion in my opponent's bridge so I can get back to the task at hand - punching him

And actually, no, you are not sticking to him if you are hitting him if you're arms are unimpeeded. You're just hitting him. Sticking to him would mean my elbow has no recoil in the punch. And, after I cycle one time thru left and right, both of my fists would be sticking to his face. that's just dumb



Sometimes this is very necessary, but not always. If you are ALWAYS looking for this, you are chasing the bridge/hand. What if you knock him back and he's wide open? Do you really need to grab him to continue hitting him?
But, I say this from experience and understanding of the systme, not belief



Actually, bridges do not have to do with only the hands. The rest of what you are talking about actually IS about bridging IMO. we can bridge with our wrists, forearms, elbows, body, knees, legs, etc. Not all are equal depending on the situation, but all can be consided a 'bridge'. Very simply put, a bridge is something that connecst 2 things right? Where is it said that only means the hands?

The rest of your idea about sticking when no bridge is really about occupying space and fwd energy concepts from my POV of HFY. while I agree your tactic is sound, I think your usages of the terms is skewed.



Sure, that is A definition of stick. But that doesn't mean that we look to do that constantly! Only when needed. You are forgetting application in that definition, as well as length and necessity to stick.
FWIW, I never realy look to 'cling' to my opponent. In my experience, when someone grabs'clings it is usally because they are afraid/scared of being hit.



Agree for the most part. But you said bridges only refers to hands.. This sounds to be in conflict with that statement.

[JPinAZ]

Ok, so you're talking sticking as in a very broad/basic sense of the term, pretty much the same as smothering your opponent, or chase/persue? While I get what you're dricing at, IMO this isn't really 'sticking' per se in a chi sau sense.
In HFY, what you are describing is covered by our Occupy Space with fwd energy concept, as well as Jeui Yeng concept from our Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying/5 battle arrays. I view 'sticking' more specifically as it referes to kiu sau engagement & chi sau bridging.

To narrow it down a bit, how do you define sticking as in reference to the term 'chi sau' within your all encompassing definition?

[Yoshiyahu]

Ok, so you're talking sticking in a very broad/basic sense of the term, pretty much the same as smothering your opponent? In HFY, this is covered by Occupy Space with fwd energy concept, as well as Jeui Yeng concept from our Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying/5 battle arrays. I'm talking sticking more specifically as it referes to kiu sau engagement & chi sau bridging.
To narrow it down a bit, how do you define sticking as in reference to the term 'chi sau' then?

chi sau is a passive drill. Even freestyle is still passive. Because both parties agree to stick. Its where you both stay inclose contact. you both contiune to bridge. In chi sau you have two people are bridging, two people seeking the centerline, two people seeking to control it, two people sticking close...

in fighting a non-wc guy...that is not going to happen. A street fighter dont care about no bridge, no centerline, no chi sau. He is going to knock your head off. Alls he care about is hitting that face. A boxer will move in and out your punching range. You have to learn to stick to a dancing fighter or he will eat you up. Seeking the bridge to stick will get you set up for a attack. So seek to attack by sticking with relenteles attacks. Bridges are created from your attack or defense as your opponent launches a counter attack.

Yes I agree with sticking to bridge. But if there is no bridge why stick to it. If your opponent covers his hands over his head why not simply manipulate his body so you can strike him anyway. Why not simply control the neck while kicking the knees. Im not asking you per say...Just an in general question.


When you doing chi sau. Your bridges are always sticking because both of you are in agreement and both of you practice an art that bridges. But in fighting you dont have that luxury. I see the occupying space and forward energy concept as sticking...not merely with the hands. Why call one thing sticking and one thing bridging? You can stick to my bridge, you can also stick to my COG. its all dependant on your skill level. But following a persons hands just to see what they gonna do next like poon sau waiting for opening will get you set up. I separate sparring from chi sau. In sparring there is no waiting or feeding. Its just attack and feel as you are attacking your opponent.

But chi sau engagnement teaches you sensitivity so when the you bridge the gap meaning join arms either because your punch is intercepted or their attack is intercepted you can react. I don't go in with hands out looking to join. I just start hitting if you throw up elbow to block or try to cover and bob and weave I make use of what you give me. If you have no guards out there to impede my attack i just start hitting whats open. If you move back or to the side I stick to you! If I bridge your jab i stick (while attacking) to you as you draw it back. If you come in attack and retreat i attack by sticking. I dont stick for the sake of joining hands or bridging unless its to stop you from hitting me by deflecting your energy away from my centerline! But while I do so its to attack!!!

[JPinAZ]

chi sau is a passive drill. Even freestyle is still passive. Because both parties agree to stick. Its where you both stay inclose contact. you both contiune to bridge. In chi sau you have two people are bridging, two people seeking the centerline, two people seeking to control it, two people sticking close...

I didn't ask you what you thought 'chi sau' was, I asked you how you define 'sticking' as it pertains to the term 'chi sau', but whatever..

Yes I agree with sticking to bridge. But if there is no bridge why stick to it. If your opponent covers his hands over his head why not simply manipulate his body so you can strike him anyway. Why not simply control the neck while kicking the knees. Im not asking you per say...Just an in general question.

I never said anything close to saying you should stick to a bridge. I have no idea what this has to do with anything I said in what you quoted?

I see the occupying space and forward energy concept as sticking...not merely with the hands.

So I know you're not just talking our your faat sau, please explain your understanding of the HFY occupy space with fwd energy concept for me, because that's what I mentioned. I also ask because it really doesn't have much to do with sticking at all.. oh, what's the point..

Why call one thing sticking and one thing bridging?

Because they are 2 different things, so they have 2 different names with 2 different definitions.
Bridging is about engagement. Sticking is something you might have to do once you are already engaged depending on the space and energy you encounter if and when you have bridged. This really shouldn't be this difficult...

You can stick to my bridge, you can also stick to my COG. its all dependant on your skill level. But following a persons hands just to see what they gonna do next like poon sau waiting for opening will get you set up. I separate sparring from chi sau. In sparring there is no waiting or feeding. Its just attack and feel as you are attacking your opponent.

ok....

But chi sau engagnement teaches you sensitivity so when the you bridge the gap meaning join arms either because your punch is intercepted or their attack is intercepted you can react. I don't go in with hands out looking to join. I just start hitting if you throw up elbow to block or try to cover and bob and weave I make use of what you give me. If you have no guards out there to impede my attack i just start hitting whats open. If you move back or to the side I stick to you! If I bridge your jab i stick (while attacking) to you as you draw it back. If you come in attack and retreat i attack by sticking. I dont stick for the sake of joining hands or bridging unless its to stop you from hitting me by deflecting your energy away from my centerline! But while I do so its to attack!!!

this is 180 degrees from what you were saying earlier in this thread, but it's good to see you are starting to think a little more.
I do find what you are saying really hard to swallow that YOU are actually doing these things in training since it's a polar opposite from what you've been saying up until now. Where and when do you do these things and with whom? Stan?

Since you like posting links of all sorts of things from youtube here, do you have any clips of yourself actually doing these things? Or any of your sparring/training partners doing this type of stuff?

[lance]

Video check it out!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orG1d0d7gq8

see how he sticks close?


Okay my wording is off you are correct. When I type alot i place a word like Hand/Sau and use in the connontation that is entire hand from finger tip to elbow...kinda of like cubit. Yes i agree with bridging from wrist, hands, and even elbow so to speak. But my definition of sticking is not merely grasping arm. Its not really touching your arm or holding your arm. My definition of sticking is as you put it briefly...



Imagine if you were at studio laying down some tracks. There was a sound missing...or space that needed to be filled. You need to stick something there to close the gap. That is what I mean by sticking.

Sticking can be with or with out the bridge. The bridge is for control. Sticking is more than a bridge. It is done with a bridge and it also done with striking. But you don't always have to have your hand out waiting for contact to stick. Thats all I am saying. When you fill the empty space with attacks an finish off your opponent so he cant react you are sticking. Sticking to his centerline, sticking to his structure, sticking to his center of gravity. You are sticking to him like glue.

Have you ever heard a person say the other guy he was fighting was on him like glue?

That is what I ultimately mean by sticking. Just because there is no bridge doesn't mean there is no contact. Remember rush in on loss of contact right?

well if your plummering his face there is no loss of contact?

No i think we disagreeing for not...because what you are saying that you do is also apart of sticking...even when you break the bridge!! Because you still have contact? Your on him like white on rice!

Yoshiyahu , the WC sifu in the video is good but he uses alot of wasted motion . Well to you , it may look like he was sticking to his opponents' hands , but to me it look more like trapping when he was covering both of his opponents' hands in his way .

Other than that the sifu was just using regular WC techniques , if I was facing a boxer like the WC sifu was , the boxer for example threw a right hook towards my face area , I can move in like the way the WC sifu did or I would just step back , and let the attack pass me and just use WC techniques .

If I was facing the boxer face to face and he threw a right jab at me I can either use a right taun sao to block his attack or can just use left hand downward palm block , and guide it to the center and the boxer is naturally going to hit me with the other hand anyway , so I ' ll just set the boxer in a trapping hands technique , and blast him with WC hand techniques . I would just make it in a way that the boxer would have a hard time of fighting me .

My definition of sticking hands is this , it does ' nt matter if the opponent throws an attack with his right and or left hand , I can remain block it , because as I block his attack I ' ve already made contact with the opponents' attacking hand already , and the opponent is going to have to pull his attacking hand back in order to attack with the other hand , during the opponents' second attack I would just move in on the opponent , using trapping hands to immobolize the opponents' attack . In other words if I can feel the opponent then I ' m safe , but
if I don ' t feel the opponent , I ' m probably opened up to an attack by the opponent , so I need to be caution in the sticking area of the opponent . Eventhough , you stick to the opponent , but don ' t trap your opponents' you ' re opening yourself to the opponents' attack .

[Yoshiyahu]

Good Post...so in other words your saying you want to control the opponennt I wholeheartily agree!

Yoshiyahu , the WC sifu in the video is good but he uses alot of wasted motion . Well to you , it may look like he was sticking to his opponents' hands , but to me it look more like trapping when he was covering both of his opponents' hands in his way .

Other than that the sifu was just using regular WC techniques , if I was facing a boxer like the WC sifu was , the boxer for example threw a right hook towards my face area , I can move in like the way the WC sifu did or I would just step back , and let the attack pass me and just use WC techniques .

If I was facing the boxer face to face and he threw a right jab at me I can either use a right taun sao to block his attack or can just use left hand downward palm block , and guide it to the center and the boxer is naturally going to hit me with the other hand anyway , so I ' ll just set the boxer in a trapping hands technique , and blast him with WC hand techniques . I would just make it in a way that the boxer would have a hard time of fighting me .

My definition of sticking hands is this , it does ' nt matter if the opponent throws an attack with his right and or left hand , I can remain block it , because as I block his attack I ' ve already made contact with the opponents' attacking hand already , and the opponent is going to have to pull his attacking hand back in order to attack with the other hand , during the opponents' second attack I would just move in on the opponent , using trapping hands to immobolize the opponents' attack . In other words if I can feel the opponent then I ' m safe , but
if I don ' t feel the opponent , I ' m probably opened up to an attack by the opponent , so I need to be caution in the sticking area of the opponent . Eventhough , you stick to the opponent , but don ' t trap your opponents' you ' re opening yourself to the opponents' attack .

[Yoshiyahu]

Why do you need to stick when you engage? If its something you do because you engaged..are u doing just because ur engaged?

I didn't ask you what you thought 'chi sau' was, I asked you how you define 'sticking' as it pertains to the term 'chi sau', but whatever..



Bridging is about engagement. Sticking is something you might have to do once you are already engaged depending on the space and energy you encounter if and when you have bridged. This really shouldn't be this difficult...

[JPinAZ]

Why do you need to stick when you engage? If its something you do because you engaged..are u doing just because ur engaged?

WTF! Are you serious? I never said anything even close to saying 'you need to stick when you engage' - where the he11 did you get that garbage from, or do you just make this crap up because you have nothing more to add to the discussion on your end?
Either you really are on drugs or you really can't read/comprehend simple english.

Look, I've been trying to talk with you against my better judgement after that whole 'stan is great' thread , but it's getting pretty much impossible to have a discussion with you when your reading comprehention skills are close to non-existant..

[Yoshiyahu]

WTF! Are you serious? I never said anything even close to saying 'you need to stick when you engage' - where the he11 did you get that garbage from, or do you just make this crap up because you have nothing more to add to the discussion on your end?
Either you really are on drugs or you really can't read/comprehend simple english.

Look, I've been trying to talk with you against my better judgement after that whole 'stan is great' thread , but it's getting pretty much impossible to have a discussion with you when your reading comprehention skills are close to non-existant..

Okay Well i was asking a question to get a convo out of you. i enjoy talking about WC even with people who have different view points. NE way please share with your view more concisely then maybe I misread things...no need to insult me!

You said the following:

Bridging is about engagement. Sticking is something you might have to do once you are already engaged depending on the space and energy you encounter if and when you have bridged. This really shouldn't be this difficult...

I asked the question:

Why do you need to stick when you engage? Are u doing just because ur engaged?

Maybe my question is stupid...Just trying to keep the conversation going buddy!

[wingchunIan]

Everyone has heard the maxim, hand comes detain it, hands leaves follow it, hand lost thrust forward (or words to that effect) and therein is the definition of sticking. You are seeking information, disrupting the opponent's rythmn / freedom of movement and feeling for gaps to the centre.

[JPinAZ]

Okay Well i was asking a question to get a convo out of you. i enjoy talking about WC even with people who have different view points. NE way please share with your view more concisely then maybe I misread things...no need to insult me!

Maybe my question is stupid...Just trying to keep the conversation going buddy!

Your question is stupic because it's already been answered several times here. I've explained myself regarding sticking and bridging in this thread as well as other threads where you asked. He11, it's even answered in the second half of the **** sentence you quoted: "Sticking is something you might have to do once you are already engaged depending on the space and energy you encounter if and when you have bridged"
I really am starting to believe you just don't have a clue what you are reading, or have substance abuse problem. No insult, just a theory that's being proven a fact time and again.

You really should be asking your sifu these questions if you can't comprehend simple english on a forum. Don't you have a Sifu? If your sifu can't answer them, then you should probably start looking for a new teacher. Or maybe you could ask stan (LOL). You can't learn WC online, and I'm tired of having to answer the same **** question over and over and over.

But if you want to have a 'convo', then maybe you should start answering some questions of mine, 'buddy'.
you can start here, there's plenty you just plain out ignored: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...&postcount=172

[Yoshiyahu]

Everyone has heard the maxim, hand comes detain it, hands leaves follow it, hand lost thrust forward (or words to that effect) and therein is the definition of sticking. You are seeking information, disrupting the opponent's rythmn / freedom of movement and feeling for gaps to the centre.

good answer...i love how you elaborated on the maxim!

Your question is stupic because it's already been answered several times here. I've explained myself regarding sticking and bridging in this thread as well as other threads where you asked. He11, it's even answered in the second half of the **** sentence you quoted: "Sticking is something you might have to do once you are already engaged depending on the space and energy you encounter if and when you have bridged"
I really am starting to believe you just don't have a clue what you are reading, or have substance abuse problem. No insult, just a theory that's being proven a fact time and again.

You really should be asking your sifu these questions if you can't comprehend simple english on a forum. Don't you have a Sifu? If your sifu can't answer them, then you should probably start looking for a new teacher. Or maybe you could ask stan (LOL). You can't learn WC online, and I'm tired of having to answer the same **** question over and over and over.

But if you want to have a 'convo', then maybe you should start answering some questions of mine, 'buddy'.
you can start here, there's plenty you just plain out ignored: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...&postcount=172

okay buddy what ever you say...lol...thanks for the convo!