Define Sticking

[YouKnowWho]

A common element in wing chun sticking is maintaining control with a wing chun perspective of good structure.

Sticking = maintaining control

Are we talking about the samething here? Is that the wrist control at 0.40?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qa6L...eature=related

You are trying to import non wc sticking concepts into wc chi sao.Mixing apples and oranges.

Why do you think that "连消带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da) - block and strike back at the same time." is not WC? I have always believed it's the kernal of the WC system, which is as important as the WC "center line" theory. The action "消(Xiao) - sticky, follow, deflect, yield, borrow force, ..." is sticky.

Please point out the difference between WC "sticking" principle vs. general TCMA "sticking" principle. It may be interest to see the difference just for the sake of this discussion.

The sticky principle is used to increase your own safty. It doesn't come free. It will slow down your offense. It's a trade off whether you want to die with your opponent, or you want to send your opponent to hell but you don't want to go there yourself.

[WC1277]

"stickyness" in Ving Tsun is a paradox! What is the point in defining it when most people think it is about sensing energy and moving your opponents limbs around?The reason for this Ving Tsun paradox is simple.......misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

If you had no idea of Ving Tsun at all but were to view two people practicing what would you conclude?

Ask your self this question.....why do we spend 90% of our training time practicing chi sau and in a fight there is no chi sau. The components developed in chi sau are always used but the sticky aspect becomes redundant.

The idea of "sticky arms" and "sticky legs" have become Ving Tsun's own worst enemy. The ineffectiveness of the sticky idea in a real fight has led to many Teachers to add in different ideas to support an already useless foundation.

Bruce Lee himself disregarded the idea of chi sau eventually but was it because he was lacking in knowledge from only a short time training under wong shun leung or because he realised that it does more damage than good if misunderstood?

I cannot define the word "sticky" in Ving Tsun because there is no such idea. It's just a name given to a drill because of how it looks and not what purpose it serves.

......and here is the problems it can cause.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxgvYvhss5A

GH

Who said anything about using chi sau in a fight? You still didn't answer the question.

[WC1277]

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A simple definition is unlikely to do justice to explaining stickng-it's more of a process than a static event. A common element in wing chun sticking is maintaining control with a wing chun perspective of good structure. Without good chi sao foundations -what happens may be something else-- kickboxing, karate. etc.

Controlling contact happens in many good martial arts..chi sao involves learning to that with wing chun motions and concepts.It's a prelude to figthing- but not fighting.

I know, I know more noise will come.After all kfo for the most part is just an unregulated-most of the time-internet forum... not serious.

Good post.

[Hardwork108]

If you only focus on ting jin (listening skill) and hua jin (deflecting skill), you will never develop your fa jin (issuing force skill). If you watch two taiji practitioners practicing in this way you will see two people just circling hands and remaining "stuck" to each other. All Yin and no Yang, if you will.

The "two people just circling" in taiji has its roots in another "development" methodology which is not really talked about with outsiders. Of course, having said that, I would add that 99.9% people who just "circle" with their hands don't really know what they are doing.

So, they are not getting the benefit of what you were referring to, but neither are they getting the benefit of the variation of the pushing hand exercise.

[Wayfaring]

So what is sticking to you?

To me sticking is wing chun's uniquely branded approach to achieving what is universally sought after in fighting skills:

1) Maintaining proper range - the proper distance to strike your opponent with force
2) Maintaining advantageous angle - the proper angle where you can strike your opponent but they have to make a correcting move before they can strike you.
3) Balance - You are in a balanced position to be able to move or strike at will with all of your limbs and body aligned for good structure and movement. Your opponent is not so balanced.
4) Control of Centerline

The chi sau practice, which is taught and progressed differently between families of WCK but some concept of it is in all WCK, is the primary introductory exercise to start to develop a feel for the above #1-#4. IMO a vast majority of WCK practitioners never progress beyond this basic exercise to be able to express #1-#4 in a free striking unrestricted movement fashion, and instead dilute the original intent of the exercise into little games of supposed skill. Thus the exercise itself supplants the skill it is supposed to develop and the additional skillsets that are only developed in an unrestricted movement scenario are never learned.

Sticking also involves the pursuit and finishing factor, or steel or cutting elements taught in TCMA or WCK. Once you have control of your opponent's centerline you pursue and attack along it to the end of finishing.

So that's what sticking means to me.

[Robinhood]

You have just pointed out several important points here. Thanks for sharing your though. It can help this discussion to go into deeper level.

I'm not saying Taiji push hand should be a model that WC sticky hand should copy. The Taiji PH is just like a "diaper" to be used on a new born baby. After you have used it to develop your Tinjin, you no longer need it. Since Tinjin will stay with you for the rest of your life, you don't need to polish it everyday. You are right that no matter how good that you are in your sticky skill, you just can't sticky your opponent to death. You will need "finish moves" to end a fight.

I think we have redirect the discusion of this thread. This thread is "Define sticking - how sticky principle can be used in combat". Whether the WC "sticky hand" uses enough "sticky" principle or not is individual's choice. I prefer "hooking" instead of "sticking" myself. By using "sticking", my opponent can break it if he wants to. By using "hooking", it's much harder for him to break it. J

Of course when you use one hand to control your opponent's arm, you have only one hand to punch back. But at the same time, your opponent only has one arm to block your punch. Since you can pull your opponent's body toward your punch to cause a "head on collusion", you may knock your opponent down with 1 punch instead of many punches.

The "sticky" and "chain punches" are complete different principles. The sticky is like a rifle that shot 1 shot at a time. The chain punches is like machine gun than shot many bullets.

In the following clip at 0.40, he uses right Tan Shou to block his opponent's right punch. He then use his right hand to pull his opponent's arm "away from his striking path" and return with a left punch at his opponent's face. At that moment if he lets go his opponent's right wrist control hand, he can start his chain punches right at that moment. If his opponent can block his 1st or 2nd punch, he may have to use his stiky principle again. There is no gurantee there.

In other wirds, the "sticky" can be used to "set up" your chain punches. There is no conflict between these 2 principles at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qa6L...eature=related

What does this have to do with sticking ?, these are just speed exercises and not a good example of much more than basic slap training.

Also holding onto to someone is not sticking.

[YouKnowWho]

What does this have to do with sticking ?, these are just speed exercises and not a good example of much more than basic slap training.

Also holding onto to someone is not sticking.

It has nothing to do with sticking. The chain punches is used when you decide to break your "sticking" (cross over your bridge, and destroy your bridge). But I won't call that "slap". When your opponent attacks you like this, it can scare the sh!t out of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded

I did say that I prefer "hooking" than "sticking". When you grab on your opponent, your opponent is not going anywhere. That will be a complete different discussion.

[Robinhood]

It has nothing to do with sticking. The chain punches is used when you decide to break your "sticking" (cross over your bridge, and destroy your bridge). But I won't call that "slap". When your opponent attacks you like this, it can scare the sh!t out of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded

I did say that I prefer "hooking" than "sticking". When you grab on your opponent, your opponent is not going anywhere. That will be a complete different discussion.

That's what happens when you stay right in front of the gun.

When you grab someone, you are not going any where either, and you are down one arm.

[YouKnowWho]

When you grab someone, you are not going any where either, and you are down one arm.

Why do you want to go anywhere when you grab someone? You are at the place where you want to be.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/222/octopusl.jpg

[Robinhood]

Why do you want to go anywhere when you grab someone? You are at the place where you want to be.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/222/octopusl.jpg

Maybe that is where he wants you to be, works both ways. Who ever makes the first move is at a disadvantage.

[Graham H]

Who said anything about using chi sau in a fight? You still didn't answer the question.

Your question has been answered but because you have an incorrect idea of Ving Tsun you can't see it!

GH

[Yoshiyahu]

Maybe that is where he wants you to be, works both ways. Who ever makes the first move is at a disadvantage.

Actually in Wing Chun he who makes the first move has the advantage...

He who attacks first usually wins the fight!

[WC1277]

Your question has been answered but because you have an incorrect idea of Ving Tsun you can't see it!

GH

Actually, you didn't answer it. You basically just made the epidemy of a strawman argument. I'm not expecting an answer that's similar to mine but an actual description would be nice...

[nasmedicine]

IMO, the "sticky" principle is to guide your opponent's arm into a "temporary" spot that won't be in your striking path

or rather, so that you will not be in front of their striking path...

[nasmedicine]

Ask your self this question.....why do we spend 90% of our training time practicing chi sau and in a fight there is no chi sau. The components developed in chi sau are always used but the sticky aspect becomes redundant.

Well said and this is 100% the case. Simply train with someone who can box (say 4 months of boxing training, having proper footwork and decent timing) and one will see what GH is referring to. The skills that you train during chi sao practice can be very very useful however the actual "sticking component" goes out the window when fighting skilled opponents, especially ranged fighters (boxer, tkd/kick boxing/muay thai...etc)