Define Sticking

[YouKnowWho]

the actual "sticking component" goes out the window when fighting skilled opponents, especially ranged fighters (boxer, tkd/kick boxing/muay thai...etc)

Unless you are in the clinching situation. In striking range, the sticking may only last for 1/4 second - connect bridge, cross bridge, destroy bridge.

I believe to use your opponent's leading arm to "jam/trap" his back arm is a very important TCMA concept. If you can push your opponent's leading arm (at the elbow joint) to cross over his back arm, not only you can control his leading arm, you also control his back arm at the same time. This will give you one free arm to strike while your opponent has no free arm to block/deflect your strike. We can see that at 0.48 in this clip. His opponent's left arm is jamed/trapped by his own right arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzZL...eature=related

Even boxers use this principle. If a boxer keeps moving toward his opponent's side door, he can avoid his opponent's powerful back hand cross or hook. The only difference between a TCMA guy does other than the boxer is to use his hand to "push" his opponent's leading arm elbow joint for 1/4 second. I do believe the elbow joint is a much better contact point than the wrist control. When you control your opponent's wrist, his elbow can still hit you. When you control his elbow, his arm is disabled.

[Hendrik]

Sticking = maintaining control

Are we talking about the samething here? Is that the wrist control at 0.40?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qa6L...eature=related



Why do you think that "连消带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da) - block and strike back at the same time." is not WC? I have always believed it's the kernal of the WC system, which is as important as the WC "center line" theory. The action "消(Xiao) - sticky, follow, deflect, yield, borrow force, ..." is sticky.

Please point out the difference between WC "sticking" principle vs. general TCMA "sticking" principle. It may be interest to see the difference just for the sake of this discussion.

The sticky principle is used to increase your own safty. It doesn't come free. It will slow down your offense. It's a trade off whether you want to die with your opponent, or you want to send your opponent to hell but you don't want to go there yourself.

Why do you think that "连消带打(Lian Xiao Dai Da) - block and strike back at the same time." is not WC? I have always believed it's the kernal of the WC system, which is as important as the WC "center line" theory.

That is a concept in Wing Chun but not the kernal of the WC system. Wing Chun has a Kernal with is as important as the center line concept. but it is not the above.



The action "消(Xiao) - sticky, follow, deflect, yield, borrow force, ..." is sticky.

Xiao is only one concept. thus, it is not all.

[nasmedicine]

Unless you are in the clinching situation. In striking range, the sticking may only last for 1/4 second - connect bridge, cross bridge, destroy bridge.

I believe to use your opponent's leading arm to "jam/trap" his back arm is a very important TCMA concept. If you can push your opponent's leading arm (at the elbow joint) to cross over his back arm, not only you can control his leading arm, you also control his back arm at the same time. This will give you one free arm to strike while your opponent has no free arm to block/deflect your strike. We can see that at 0.48 in this clip. His opponent's left arm is jamed/trapped by his own right arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMzZL...eature=related

Even boxers use this principle. If a boxer keeps moving toward his opponent's side door, he can avoid his opponent's powerful back hand cross or hook. The only difference between a TCMA guy does other than the boxer is to use his hand to "push" his opponent's leading arm elbow joint for 1/4 second. I do believe the elbow joint is a much better contact point than the wrist control. When you control your opponent's wrist, his elbow can still hit you. When you control his elbow, his arm is disabled.

you are correct, I often find the "sticking" of my chi sao most useful when rolling with my BJJ friends (hence why I didn't mentioned any grappling arts, kinda wanted to avoid making this a Wing Chun vs. BJJ discussion). It has allowed me to get out of some pretty sticky situations, lol (i know corny). As far as boxing you are correct there again, however that type of boxing is frowned upon by boxing purest's, I was referring to pro boxing (where the back hand is not often seen/encountered, in all the pro matches I've watched I've only see it used 2 times) and not the type of boxing that would be encountered in the street or in an MMA setting (where you would more likely see a back hand/spinning back hand thrown).

[Wayfaring]

Also holding onto to someone is not sticking.

So there is are differences between WCK sticking and clinch skills from grappling arts that I see.

The difference is the aim or goal. WCK's goal is to control the opponent - range, angle, balance, centerline to be able to strike them most effectively.

Grappling arts goal is to close all distance and take the opponent down. There may be a couple of similarities, but there are more differences.

[YouKnowWho]

So there is are differences between WCK sticking and clinch skills from grappling arts that I see.

The difference is the aim or goal. WCK's goal is to control the opponent - range, angle, balance, centerline to be able to strike them most effectively.

Grappling arts goal is to close all distance and take the opponent down. There may be a couple of similarities, but there are more differences.

The sticky principle used by a "striker" is short and temporary. In the following clip, you can see that the connection was broken when the punch was landed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_MHB7Ox1Sc

If a "grappler" uses the same combo, the connection will be continued "during and after" his opponent is taken down to the ground.

In either situations, the "set up" could be the same.

[k gledhill]

arrrghhh !

[WC1277]

arrrghhh !

So, you and the PB crowd are essentially saying that there is absolutely no reason to ever "stick" in application ever? Even if it doesn't involve chasing? That out of all of ip man's students, there was only one who saw the application of sticking as a chi Sao only thing? That ip man himself implied to this individual that sticking is absolutely useless outside of chi Sao? That over 20 different ip man lineages including HKM, Hawkins Cheung, Moy Yat, TST, and others are completely and utterly confused in their own pursuit of what they learned from their Sifu? Sure, there are many who get the "sticking" concept wrong and it shows, sticking is a by-product of good structure not a seeking, but you are being ignorant, at best, to say "sticking" in application is non-existent in Ip Man WC. I've see many use it successfully in real fights from my school alone. HKM himself, produced more fighters than any other student. Ip man is quoted as saying "If you want fighters, go see HKM, I have no fighters here."

At the end of the day, you can say WSL or PB "evolved" THEIR version for better or for worse but to claim something didn't exist from the beginning of the Ip Man line is completely baseless and you suffer being the odd man out. I'd like to see you tell that to some of the first and second gen. students who are still alive. Keep that face palm for yourself....

[Graham H]

So, you and the PB crowd are essentially saying that there is absolutely no reason to ever "stick" in application ever? Even if it doesn't involve chasing? That out of all of ip man's students, there was only one who saw the application of sticking as a chi Sao only thing? That ip man himself implied to this individual that sticking is absolutely useless outside of chi Sao? That over 20 different ip man lineages including HKM, Hawkins Cheung, Moy Yat, TST, and others are completely and utterly confused in their own pursuit of what they learned from their Sifu? Sure, there are many who get the "sticking" concept wrong and it shows, sticking is a by-product of good structure not a seeking, but you are being ignorant, at best, to say "sticking" in application is non-existent in Ip Man WC. I've see many use it successfully in real fights from my school alone. HKM himself, produced more fighters than any other student. Ip man is quoted as saying "If you want fighters, go see HKM, I have no fighters here."

At the end of the day, you can say WSL or PB "evolved" THEIR version for better or for worse but to claim something didn't exist from the beginning of the Ip Man line is completely baseless and you suffer being the odd man out. I'd like to see you tell that to some of the first and second gen. students who are still alive. Keep that face palm for yourself....

Maybe WSL/PB did/have evolved the system in which case they have improved in far beyond those other lineages you have stated above IMO. The "sticky" idea is useless but can be effective in a classroom with other students in chi sau. I know good chi sau people that can do many things whilst arms on arms but when contact is broken they walk about like egyptian mummies trying to make arm contact again. That is not real life.

At the end of the day what counts in fighting is how consistently hard you can hit your opponent whilst preventing being hit yourself. Skill, timing, mobilty, punching power and punching precision are what win fights NOT sticking to and/or manipulating arms.

One thing that cannot be denied is that WSL was a fighter so he will have encountered certain aspects of Ving Tsun that maybe did not work in real fights. Maybe he changed them or threw them out completely. Clever people can see sh!t for what it is. For some other people in Ip Man's school maybe they were not so clever. Its a shame Ip Po Ching passed away so early. It would been intetresting to see how things compared but as for your certain other "seniors"...........................nah! better off going to a good boxing club.
GH

[GlennR]

It would been intetresting to see how things compared but as for your certain other "seniors"...........................nah! better off going to a good boxing club.
GH

Awesome G, when are we seeing you at the club

[Graham H]

Awesome G, when are we seeing you at the club

Ive had my stint in the boxing ring mate and I would surely push people in that direction rather than go to most WC clubs!!

G

[k gledhill]

So, you and the PB crowd are essentially saying that there is absolutely no reason to ever "stick" in application ever? Even if it doesn't involve chasing? That out of all of ip man's students, there was only one who saw the application of sticking as a chi Sao only thing? That ip man himself implied to this individual that sticking is absolutely useless outside of chi Sao? That over 20 different ip man lineages including HKM, Hawkins Cheung, Moy Yat, TST, and others are completely and utterly confused in their own pursuit of what they learned from their Sifu? Sure, there are many who get the "sticking" concept wrong and it shows, sticking is a by-product of good structure not a seeking, but you are being ignorant, at best, to say "sticking" in application is non-existent in Ip Man WC. I've see many use it successfully in real fights from my school alone. HKM himself, produced more fighters than any other student. Ip man is quoted as saying "If you want fighters, go see HKM, I have no fighters here."

At the end of the day, you can say WSL or PB "evolved" THEIR version for better or for worse but to claim something didn't exist from the beginning of the Ip Man line is completely baseless and you suffer being the odd man out. I'd like to see you tell that to some of the first and second gen. students who are still alive. Keep that face palm for yourself....

Have you ever stared into one of those 3-D images with just abstract dots and shapes that as you focus past the surface you suddenly see a simple image clearly ?
Well that is my view of the reasons for the current issues regarding VT today.
Many students never saw the image under the abstract drills, forms, dummy, etc...Leaving them with only one recourse, to interpret the dots and abstractions as best they could.
Its not their fault they didnt see the image its imo simply due to the fact that they werent told to look for it.
IOW if I show you a bunch of forms and drills and never share a common goal or image as your aim, you will never look for it....

The image we all share is right before you as you do the drills , forms, YOU WC1277 are doing pretty much the same things I am, the only thing that is missing is a common image to share as our goal under the abstraction ....

I would never have seen it but for P Bayer, its no secret either.

Its all in the mind and how we connect the information, the modules of drills to functional use outside the drill...

No matter how long some stare at the surface they wont be able to penetrate past the confusion of drills, and sticking or not sticking, etc...

I have seen the image , so has Graham, Sean and many others...its not a secret. We all can see past the abstract.

Its pointless getting into a ****ing match.

[Phil Redmond]

So basically here's what I'm getting from the PB followers posts. PB is correct and everyone else is wrong. Is anyone else getting that? Where are the PB fighters? I'm more into how you fight than how you do chi sau in vids against students who aren't really trying to hit you back.

[k gledhill]

So basically here's what I'm getting from the PB followers posts. PB is correct and everyone else is wrong. Is anyone else getting that? Where are the PB fighters? I'm more into how you fight than how you do chi sau in vids against students who aren't really trying to hit you back.

Not right wrong, just a different perspective...depending where YOU are on the learning curve is what you can see ...or not.

[Phil Redmond]

Not right wrong, just a different perspective...depending where YOU are on the learning curve is what you can see ...or not.

I sense a little hint of condescension in your statement. With regards to the learning curve I can see a major cross lineage WC rule broken in lots of the chi sau video clips you've posted. And that is Mo Yuk Jang (immovable elbow). So much for being higher on the learning curve in that regard.

[Vajramusti]

I sense a little hint of condescension in your statement. With regards to the learning curve I can see a major cross lineage WC rule broken in lots of the chi sau video clips you've post. And that is Mo Yuk Jang (immovable elbow). So much for being higher on the learning curve in that regard.

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Phil- you area a better person than me in conversing with the two PB guys. I find their repetitious posts way past boring. Mostly, I just ignore them.