Military & TMA

[pateticorecords]

How many here are veterans?
How many of you have been in combat?
How did your military combat training measure up or compliment your TMA training?
Did you ever use your TMA in combat, or to defend yourself while serving?

I ask these questions because of all of the postings surrounding the validity of traditional martial arts and the effectiveness in modern day times.

Please don't derail the conversations to: MMA VS TMA, or If you don't compete it is not valid, etc, etc, etc, etc. We all know that in order to be effective we have to cross train, learn ground fighting & grappling, and that there is no "one" style or art that is superior to another it is the martial artist that makes the art.


I am a vet, I have been in combat and I have used hand to hand combat live, so it is important to me to understand others perspectives on the subject.

I study and teach TCMA, I coach high school wrestling (I my incorporation of TCMA concepts and techniques put our team in an advantage since most traditional wrestlers don't know what to do when movements done are outside of the cannon they have been taught - we go to states every year), I grapple; compete/competed in bare knuckle fights, continuous sparring, full contact, sanda, point sparring, and MMA (not professional... getting a little too old and showing up to a Fortune 100 company with a black eye is frowned upon, especially when you work in corporate HR with upper management sitting on the same floor).

Military hand to hand combat training is based on principles of boxing, TMA, Judo, and Jui Jitsu. While training in the military having my TCMA background definitely help to apply and execute in more ways that what the instructors were teaching. In actual combat, my TCMA training helped me control myself better than my counterparts in similar situations. View situations from different angles and perspectives.

Now the military has implemented MMA to their training as well and have their own leagues that compete against each other in Uniform but without combat boots. Which I applaud.

[Drake]

Most of what happens now, I suppose due to the nature of the war we are in, is all about crew served weapons, calling for fire, airstrikes, and your individual weapon. You have different weapon techniques, like the muzzle jab to the chest, but aside from that, hand to hand out here is a rarity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was with the Royal Canadian Regiment out of Petawawa and I was long range recon, which is polite speak for a sniper and I served as a peackeeper in Bosnia.
Never used my H2H in combat for obvious reasons, but I did compete in the Canadian armed forces games in Judo, Boxing and "sambo".
And I also competed in the "sniper matches".
I used my MA more as a bouncer than I ever did as a soldier.

[pateticorecords]

Most of what happens now, I suppose due to the nature of the war we are in, is all about crew served weapons, calling for fire, airstrikes, and your individual weapon. You have different weapon techniques, like the muzzle jab to the chest, but aside from that, hand to hand out here is a rarity.

First off, thank you for serving and sharing.

I only had to use several times while in Somalia, Haiti, and Bosnia. As well as using disarmament movements against armed opponents in more humanitarian relief efforts. I was part of mobility unit, so we landed in C 130s or C17s (later in my career), set up security perimeters, satellite operations, and channeled troops, weapons, equipment, etc thereafter.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I served in Vietnam for 14 months, 67 & 68. I was a member of a 9 man team. We solved problems. I was a shooter with 3 others of my outfit. They did not have a sniper school then, and picked and chose their people from qualification records at the firing range. I am a sharpshooter. I also taught hand to hand combat jiujitsu, also put together a manual for the same. I taught 2 dozen men to become instructors. Not the complete system of course, but about a dozen attack techniques and the defense techniques for the same. Mostly techniques to kill or maim.
I did in fact use my MA training several times while there. And several more times since. I have never actually did what everyone recommends, like sparring. I trained my skills and applied them as needed, and I never expected them to make me bullet proof, but expected them to aid me or at least give me an edge, which they certainly did.

[Drake]

Well, maybe it's different out east in the Waziristan area. Had a SGM tell me some pretty insane stories of what it was like fighting the Waziris.

Out in Kandahar, it's all weapons. IEDs, VBIEDs, suicide bombers, SAF, and pirate cannons (PM me if you want to know what I'm talking about). But yeah... not much H2H happening over here. I have a gunner with either a 240B or an M50, and we're strapped into a gigantor armored vehicle.

[YouKnowWho]

I was the 2nd lieutenant in ROC (Taiwan) navy. During a basic close combat training, after a stabbing with my knife at the end of my rifle, I supposed to use the handle of my rifle to strik on the target. From my staff training experience, I used my rifle handle to swing at the wooden dummy and broke the dummy head. Even today, I can still hear that my training sargeant yelled at me from behind.

The funny thing was after the "莒拳(Ju Quan) - military TCMA" instructor found out that I trained TCMA, I became his teaching assistent right way.

IMO, the military TCMA training is just to fulfill the requirment. Nobody takes it serious.

[SPJ]

modern army really evolved into high tech and drones.

H2H combat becomes less and less important.

I was busy maintaining guns, mortars and APC, when I was assigned to Armor division in Taiwan.

It was the tiger division. It was an infantry division that stationed in Kinmen and defeated PLA at ku ning tou in 1949. In the late 1950s, it turned into the first armor division in Taiwan.

We had some H2H competitions within division and against marine division.

Yes. I was among a selected team. I won some and lost a few.

Such is the life.

Got to ride a light tank for recon

and main battle tank M48. The tank broke down all the time. They were like pre korean war tanks and modified (modernized) by Taiwan.

When it rained, the tank would be in the mud so quickly.

When typhoon came, we got to help harvest the crops before the storm hit.

It was like farm work, mechanic work most of the time.

90% preparation to fight. 9% propaganda

1% time actually mock fight against other division or marine division.

shi dui kan division contesting to fight.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I was the 2nd lieutenant in ROC (Taiwan) navy. During a basic close combat training, after a stabbing with my knife at the end of my rifle, I supposed to use the handle of my rifle to strik on the target. From my staff training experience, I used my rifle handle to swing at the wooden dummy and broke the dummy head. Even today, I can still hear that my training sargeant yelled at me from behind.

The funny thing was after the "莒拳(Ju Quan) - military TCMA" instructor found out that I trained TCMA, I became his teaching assistent right way.

IMO, the military TCMA training is just to fulfill the requirment. Nobody takes it serious.

One of the ranking members of our small outfit was a ROC captain. He was a 4th dan Tae kwan do. He was good too. He lives in Dallas today and we remain friends even after so long a time. Funny thing, his 2 comrades were about 6 feet and 180 lbs, but he was a very small fellow. We share the same last name.
One day we followed a group of marines on a search and destroy, and we were supposed to link up with a small civilian group of montagnards. We were carrying arms for them. Some suspected VC ran out of a hootch and down a drainage canal between some larger structures, and they were not armed. I ran and jumped on the lead fellow and rolled him, jumped up and went to trying to get them down, I had 2 of them rolling around on the ground when 2 more ran up and jumped on top of me. It was a real knock down and drag out for a few minutes there, then Lee and one of his boys came and jumped into the fracus and we detained all 4 of them. Hey, those little fellows were way stronger than you would expect. They were scared and had lots of adreneline flowing. I was just hoping some marine didn't open up with a machine gun and kill all of us. Turns out they were not VC at all and we turned them loose. Any fighting aged guys were terrified of both sides.

[SPJ]

as far as mock fight or role playing

there are many civil war and world war II.

the most fun one

"band of brothers"

yes need money and time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhRNV...eature=related

guns and artillery first and foremost

when is the H2H is going to be used?

sometimes are like never.

of course if you are in a close combat

H2H is vital only then.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q32Mr...eature=related

need bigger gun or more armor.

infantry with AT weapon fine

but if the light tank or infantry support tank got close

yes we run

need a medium tank sherman to take out the light tank.

etc etc

H2H combat?

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4JI6...eature=related

samurai sword against a rifle.

[Drake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q32Mr...eature=related

need bigger gun or more armor.

infantry with AT weapon fine

but if the light tank or infantry support tank got close

yes we run

need a medium tank sherman to take out the light tank.

etc etc

H2H combat?

SPJ,
You make a good point about modern warfare. H2H is not where you need to be proficient these days. You need to be a good shot, know your ROE, and know how to use your equipment. You have to able to spot anomalies during patrols which range from the obvious (no kids playing, when there's normally tons of them) to the minute (tripwires, small amounts of moved earth).
You shoud never be in a position, except during raids, where H2H is even a possibility. And even then, when clearing buildings, your M4 is your primary weapon...you always have your team with you, so it should never be a one on one fight.

[pateticorecords]

All very valid points in today's war environment. The basics of all warfare has been the same for centuries, with more advanced weaponry substituting man to man fighting.

The basic principles of combat (drills, Strategic and Tactical Maneuvers, marching, weapons training, survival tactics, principles of warfare, etc) are always taught as the foundation.

For example, it ancient times an archer (soldier) was taught to shoot an arrow with speed and accuracy in various scenarios.
In modern times, a sharp shooter trains in very similar fashion but with the modern weapon in mind.

[GeneChing]

Is soccer TMA now?

Just ttt-ing this one because I needed to share these PLA pix.

Photos: PLA female soldiers train in short-shorts, face masks


These photos, grabbed off of a Chinese military web site, show female soldiers of the People's Liberation Army donning hotpants and gas masks while playing football with the male soldiers.

The female soldiers are speculated to be in training with their counterparts, but not much else is known about the photos.

After the Korean female soldiers in the Sword Hotties thread, I'm starting to rethink women in Asian military.