What's your solution if you are a striker?

[Dragonzbane76]

finally why does everyone assume grappling means im going to go to the floor with you, i can just pick you up and slam you on your head, through a wall or simply tie your arms up standing and headbutt you into submission

Because the they do not understand grappling. They think grappling is two guys rolling around meaninglessly on the ground.

If you have no experience in something you tend to blow it off.

What many fail to understand is that grappling starts when you enter clinch range and have the ability to grab or touch someone. Another misnomer is that a grapple is going to play by the rules as well because they are locked into sporting rulesets, which is just stupid to think. If anything a person with good ground movement will have an initial advantage. I think everyone understands that if you have six people cornering you, its probably not wise to go to the ground. But if you have six people on you I don't think any amount of whatever training is going to save you.

[Matthew]

Thanks for at least taking it seriously, Frost. There are reasons I'm at this forum in my free time and not MMA forums, mostly for the number of those open minded about training methods. Also I will quote myself on some responses, because I feel I already answered parts here and there.

For reference, I use the terms Street Fighting and Combat interchangeably, meaning a no rules confrontation.

ill still try and turn it back on you if you dont mind, because ive never heard a grappler with any expereince say single/double and throws are easy to stop if you drill against them, if they were you wouldnt see so many takedowns and throws in MMA and wrestling

I don't mind and I didn't say it was easy. I must have posted it in another post so forgive me if I am reposting, but takedowns are my primary means of sparring with MMA background, simply because I don't want to exchange blows and on the street there are likely multiple people.

Also it's possible Jiu Jitsu or Judo guys don't say that, but for single/double legs it is called a sprawl (or if you want, a knee to the head, or an arm turn) and it is pretty easy.. a different story for hip throws/other throws.

I've seen knockouts from knees to the head during a take down in fights. Of course it's not easy to perform, that's why people train it. Youtube Gives us a textbook example with a Gracie

I know if I ask wrestlers that I know, I would get one of two responses (all non-martial artists, although some may have done boxing or MMA for mixed time periods), either 1) yeah all fights go down to the ground... or 2) there's no way, i would go for his vitals and get the heck out of there (punch his throat, his eyes, etc)

Usually it depends on if they're from a poor area where they feel real combat is different than sparring, which is a recurring theme I am making here.

I tend to see that open minded grapplers are at grappling clubs and not schools/dojos because club grapplers usually do not pay a lot and do not have some false sense of pride in their style being ultimate. Once you involve a larger pay check, you almost have to believe to some extent that what you are training is really good stuff.

I know more wrestlers than I do Judo or Jiu Jitsu practitioners. While I know a couple jiujitsu practitioners, I probably only know 1 person who practiced Judo formally.. so I don't know what they're saying in terms of combat. As this is relevant to the topic here, I am assuming the original poster meant a standup stylist versus ground stylist, because I don't know anyone who is pure striking without take downs and I don't know anyone who doesn't know how to stand on their feet.

as for the whole weapons/freinds arguements havent these been done to death by now?

Not really, combat is combat. I had a friend who did wrestling since young age like myself, then he did Jiu Jitsu and MMA for about 4 years and was a huge street fighter. In all of his years on the street, he never got stabbed. He did however tie up his arms with a guy to take him down one day and got his jaw smashed by the guys friend with 'brass' knuckles. He changed his mind a bit about grappling in street fights.. although he kept training it for amateur MMA bouts he did. In my mind- what you train forms habits that cross boundary into how you will defend yourself on the street.

To give another example, when I was younger and was a bit rowdy of a teen, my close buddy's dad (who was a long time wrestler) once told me "back in the day you could get in a fight and beat each other up, now a days you have to walk away or get away because everyone is holding knives and the situation is different." This really resonates with me and shaped my views long before I was involved in non-grappling arts.

This goes back to my comment about impoverished area/street fights vs. MMA-fights (one is reality) and also applies if the teacher is in a park in an impoverished area. We can only assume the challenger has a knife or friends waiting to come back to hurt you or class members in the future. It's never worth "showing him who is boss"

to cut it short who says im not the one pulling the knife and sticking it in you as im mounted on you or its my friends kicking you in the head as i hold you down

Now you see precisely why I train standup and have no desire to tie my limbs up in combat. I train take down defenses, and take downs, but never tying up my limbs with theirs. Also there may be a miscommunication between us about what standup is. Standup includes some amount of "grappling" in the sense there are takedowns and there is contact. I do not call this grappling as grappling to me implies using your limbs to attempt to control the other person. To give another example, I have 2 friends who have been stabbed to some extent in the past 5 years. One was slashed across the surface of his belly and he was lucky it didn't pass the outer layer of skin. The other, who was an MMA guy who has a pretty big mouth on him, thought it was smart to feed into some idiot who was drunk (in an impoverished area again remember! where people don't know mms rules). He went to lock up in clinch and got stabbed in the belly 2 or 3 times I believe. This is not to say that MMA guys are like this, or that this couldn't happen to a Kung Fu or Judo or other practitioner, so don't take that out of it.. This is to say that I have become even more a proponent of saying the only way to prepare for a street fight is practicing stand up and awareness of your surroundings. Mostly standup though, as any non-martial artist can also be aware of his surroundings.

Also if you were the one doing the stabbing as you suggest, you are a horrible teacher and shouldn't be teaching in public parks as you probably have mental issues . It would be hard to defend yourself in court "the martial art master needed to stab the challenger" wouldn't sound good, right?

finally why does everyone assume grappling means im going to go to the floor with you

I'm not assuming that, I'm assuming it means trying to control my using your limbs. Once we tie up our limbs though, we are openly inviting their friends to step in or knives to slide into us. It's not easy to see if they have something in their sleeve without the bright lights of a dojo/school/kwoon.

I wouldn't call takedowns grappling, because the take downs I practice leave free limbs or standing mobility while doing them (depending on the takedowns you practice you may call it part of grappling, obviously common wrestling takedowns, hip throws, or others require all your limbs and weight to be locked into both legs for a time).

[Frost]

Thanks for at least taking it seriously, Frost. There are reasons I'm at this forum in my free time and not MMA forums, mostly for the number of those open minded about training methods. Also I will quote myself on some responses, because I feel I already answered parts here and there.

For reference, I use the terms Street Fighting and Combat interchangeably, meaning a no rules confrontation.


I don't mind and I didn't say it was easy. I must have posted it in another post so forgive me if I am reposting, but takedowns are my primary means of sparring with MMA background, simply because I don't want to exchange blows and on the street there are likely multiple people.

Also it's possible Jiu Jitsu or Judo guys don't say that, but for single/double legs it is called a sprawl (or if you want, a knee to the head, or an arm turn) and it is pretty easy.. a different story for hip throws/other throws.


I know if I ask wrestlers that I know, I would get one of two responses (all non-martial artists, although some may have done boxing or MMA for mixed time periods), either 1) yeah all fights go down to the ground... or 2) there's no way, i would go for his vitals and get the heck out of there (punch his throat, his eyes, etc)

Usually it depends on if they're from a poor area where they feel real combat is different than sparring, which is a recurring theme I am making here.

I tend to see that open minded grapplers are at grappling clubs and not schools/dojos because club grapplers usually do not pay a lot and do not have some false sense of pride in their style being ultimate. Once you involve a larger pay check, you almost have to believe to some extent that what you are training is really good stuff.

I know more wrestlers than I do Judo or Jiu Jitsu practitioners. While I know a couple jiujitsu practitioners, I probably only know 1 person who practiced Judo formally.. so I don't know what they're saying in terms of combat. As this is relevant to the topic here, I am assuming the original poster meant a standup stylist versus ground stylist, because I don't know anyone who is pure striking without take downs and I don't know anyone who doesn't know how to stand on their feet.



Not really, combat is combat. I had a friend who did wrestling since young age like myself, then he did Jiu Jitsu and MMA for about 4 years and was a huge street fighter. In all of his years on the street, he never got stabbed. He did however tie up his arms with a guy to take him down one day and got his jaw smashed by the guys friend with 'brass' knuckles. He changed his mind a bit about grappling in street fights.. although he kept training it for amateur MMA bouts he did. In my mind- what you train forms habits that cross boundary into how you will defend yourself on the street.

To give another example, when I was younger and was a bit rowdy of a teen, my close buddy's dad (who was a long time wrestler) once told me "back in the day you could get in a fight and beat each other up, now a days you have to walk away or get away because everyone is holding knives and the situation is different." This really resonates with me and shaped my views long before I was involved in non-grappling arts.

This goes back to my comment about impoverished area/street fights vs. MMA-fights (one is reality) and also applies if the teacher is in a park in an impoverished area. We can only assume the challenger has a knife or friends waiting to come back to hurt you or class members in the future. It's never worth "showing him who is boss"



Now you see precisely why I train standup and have no desire to tie my limbs up in combat. I train take down defenses, and take downs, but never tying up my limbs with theirs. Also there may be a miscommunication between us about what standup is. Standup includes some amount of "grappling" in the sense there are takedowns and there is contact. I do not call this grappling as grappling to me implies using your limbs to attempt to control the other person. To give another example, I have 2 friends who have been stabbed to some extent in the past 5 years. One was slashed across the surface of his belly and he was lucky it didn't pass the outer layer of skin. The other, who was an MMA guy who has a pretty big mouth on him, thought it was smart to feed into some idiot who was drunk (in an impoverished area again remember! where people don't know mms rules). He went to lock up in clinch and got stabbed in the belly 2 or 3 times I believe. This is not to say that MMA guys are like this, or that this couldn't happen to a Kung Fu or Judo or other practitioner, so don't take that out of it.. This is to say that I have become even more a proponent of saying the only way to prepare for a street fight is practicing stand up and awareness of your surroundings. Mostly standup though, as any non-martial artist can also be aware of his surroundings.

Also if you were the one doing the stabbing as you suggest, you are a horrible teacher and shouldn't be teaching in public parks as you probably have mental issues . It would be hard to defend yourself in court "the martial art master needed to stab the challenger" wouldn't sound good, right?



I'm not assuming that, I'm assuming it means trying to control my using your limbs. Once we tie up our limbs though, we are openly inviting their friends to step in or knives to slide into us. It's not easy to see if they have something in their sleeve without the bright lights of a dojo/school/kwoon.

I wouldn't call takedowns grappling, because the take downs I practice leave free limbs or standing mobility while doing them (depending on the takedowns you practice you may call it part of grappling, obviously common wrestling takedowns, hip throws, or others require all your limbs and weight to be locked into both legs for a time).

To quote “

single/double leg/hip throw/ and other setups that are easy to stop if you train drilling against them.”

This was what you actually said, maybe I was confused because you used the term easy to stop….but hey ho

And to be honest since we so fundamentally disagree on what grappling is, how it should be defined, how low percentage a move kneeing the head during a takedown is not to mention how easy it is to just sprawl your way out of a single or double there is really no reason to continue this discussion. Have a fun day

[David Jamieson]

sure they are i mean we dont have 80 years or so of vale tudo events without gloves to show you are wrong about this......oh wait we do

as for sticking your head in there first, well there are normally a few signs in someones writing that screams no eactual expereince with grappling...that phrase is one of them

You don't have 80 years of vale tudo students anywhere outside of south america.

I also strongly doubt that modern mma is anything akin to vale tudo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It may be too late to apply your grappling skiill if your opponent starts to attack you like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded

On any given day a striker has a chance, right?
Of course Silva could have just side stepped but Wanderlei in those days had two gears: Forward and forward, LOL !

[Yum Cha]

really in the first 3 UFCs i cant remember him ever being troubled by a hit, care to post the clip of it because i am probably misremembering

my expereince is different wrestlers are used to taking a lot more hits than most TCMA guys, especially those playing tag in sparring, they are used to getting thrown hard, croseefaced hard, slammed hard, and tend to shake of most hits, this is also true of the early wrestlers in MMA, Kerr etc

I'll go youtube hunting a bit later, nothing wrong with spending half an hour watching Gracie fights...<grin>

And, apples and apples, you can't compare a semi pro or pro MMA grappler/wrestler with 'middle grade' high school wrestler, or someone with a year or two of grappling...

Just like you can't really compare an average tcma 'patty cake' player with a fully trained and experienced TCMA guy.

Yes, I will agree, wrestlers understand punishment better than TCMA patty cake players, but they likewise aren't used to getting hit unless they move into MMA, its not part of their training.

Of course, MMA is the living recognition that they realised their game was incomplete.

Oh, and headbutting into submission, lovely....

[YouKnowWho]

On any given day a striker has a chance, right?
Of course Silva could have just side stepped but Wanderlei in those days had two gears: Forward and forward, LOL !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded

The problem is if you attack a challenger like showing in that clip, it will be difficult for you in the court. no matter how good your criminal laywer may be.

[Matthew]

Frost, I'm disappointed you are closing yourself off. You mentioned that you never heard grapplers talk like this (although there are some even on this forum that have grappling experience who do talk like I was). I gave evidence why I, a former grappler, believe what I believe about street-fighting and gave experiences from my life that are entirely relevant to grappling practice. I also gave commentary from fellow grapplers I know. I posted what I posted to seek mutual understanding, not to tell you that grappling is bad.

To quote “This was what you actually said, maybe I was confused because you used the term easy to stop….but hey ho

You are taking my quote out of context.. original quote is here "Now I only use [my prior grappling] experience to understand grappler initiation such as single/double leg/hip throw/ and other setups that are easy to stop if you train drilling against them." Keywords being "if you train drilling against them." To outline a couple basic points- if someone wants to hip throw (I originally learned mine from a Judo practitioner back when I did freestyle wrestling), you can bear hug them- which is a grappler answer to a throw. As I learned in TCMA there are several other ways to adjust body mechanics that are similar, but do not require locking up both arms and losing mobility or risking being pulled to the ground, which for the sake of my argument are not great answers to a street fight-challenger.

And to be honest since we so fundamentally disagree on what grappling is, how it should be defined, how low percentage a move kneeing the head during a takedown is not to mention how easy it is to just sprawl your way out of a single or double there is really no reason to continue this discussion. Have a fun day

That's a huge cop-out man, I felt some respect for your open-mindedness you showed in your first response to me, but to throw out a perfectly good learning-exchange over semantics is a true waste!

I'm sorry you feel this way. By the way, I mentioned that sprawls are an easy way out too! We do have things in common.. although since training in various CMA, I have adjusted how I would do a sprawl from what I've learned in standup takedowns/postural alignments/sensitivity skills/etc.

If you want to clarify what you believe Grappling is- it may help the discussion we are having.

I'm still up for PMing if you don't want to talk here as it seems like there are things you want to say about grappling that you don't want to get dogged for by others- I fully understand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded

The problem is if you attack a challenger like showing in that clip, it will be difficult for you in the court. no matter how good your criminal laywer may be.

That's what overhand rights are for

[Fa Xing]

That's what overhand rights are for

or round kick to the thigh, that one has saved me before

[Faruq]

That was a homeless dude they lured into their club and proceeded to beat unconscious. In my opinion, everyone involved in that is an idiot. All the way down the line from the guy who did it to the guy who took it to the guy who directed it to the people who watched it. Each a remarkably stupid individual through and through.

The comments said after the homeless guy gave up the other guy crushed his throat. I agree with your comments about those guys.

[Frost]

Frost, I'm disappointed you are closing yourself off. You mentioned that you never heard grapplers talk like this (although there are some even on this forum that have grappling experience who do talk like I was). I gave evidence why I, a former grappler, believe what I believe about street-fighting and gave experiences from my life that are entirely relevant to grappling practice. I also gave commentary from fellow grapplers I know. I posted what I posted to seek mutual understanding, not to tell you that grappling is bad.



You are taking my quote out of context.. original quote is here "Now I only use [my prior grappling] experience to understand grappler initiation such as single/double leg/hip throw/ and other setups that are easy to stop if you train drilling against them." Keywords being "if you train drilling against them." To outline a couple basic points- if someone wants to hip throw (I originally learned mine from a Judo practitioner back when I did freestyle wrestling), you can bear hug them- which is a grappler answer to a throw. As I learned in TCMA there are several other ways to adjust body mechanics that are similar, but do not require locking up both arms and losing mobility or risking being pulled to the ground, which for the sake of my argument are not great answers to a street fight-challenger.




That's a huge cop-out man, I felt some respect for your open-mindedness you showed in your first response to me, but to throw out a perfectly good learning-exchange over semantics is a true waste!

I'm sorry you feel this way. By the way, I mentioned that sprawls are an easy way out too! We do have things in common.. although since training in various CMA, I have adjusted how I would do a sprawl from what I've learned in standup takedowns/postural alignments/sensitivity skills/etc.

If you want to clarify what you believe Grappling is- it may help the discussion we are having.

I'm still up for PMing if you don't want to talk here as it seems like there are things you want to say about grappling that you don't want to get dogged for by others- I fully understand.

Ill answer here but it seems a bit silly for the following:

The problem is I was being sarcastic about the sprawl, its not that easy to do it’s a fight once you sprawl because if you have to sprawl out of a shot that means he is in deep on you and its now a scramble, a bad takedown can be stuffed with a level change and using the forklift or even a underhook and circle out, heck a level change and stiff arm can work against it, a good shot where they are in deep on your legs sprawl and that means a real fight: wh*zzer, cross face etc all have to be used and if he turns the corner, ducks out etc you are into another fight, and even good wrestlers who drill sprawls all the time still get taken down, its simply not that easy to do which is one reason I said we just fundamentally disagree just saying drill the sprawl and singles and doubles are easy to stop..well I simply don’t agree

Another reason was how you interpret grappling, all takedowns for me require a limb to be use and controlled, not just upper body throws but most trips sweeps and leg attacks also include control of a limb, usually the lower body and this to me is grappling, just as a sprawl is grappling because you have body contact, and usually an underhook or ****zer controlling their upper limbs

Most takedowns require you to unbalance the opponent and to me this is grappling, and since we don’t agree on this point it seems a bit silly to keep discussing it lol

As for street fights I know a very good coach who used to do TCMA and JKD who managed to survive multipul attackers using knifes who now teaches a knife defence system based on grappling and limb control, because he learned from first hand experience a knife fight is about limb control, controlling the opponents ability to move and hurt him at close range, which sounds like grappling, is it the only approach no but it’s a good one and since he teaches in a very rough city here in the UK and has a lot of students one that seems to work well

[GlennR]

I despise wing chun but Gary Lam did the right thing here. A guy slipped a slap on Gary while holding hands(chi sao) and Gary proceeded to show him who was boss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBtnV...E66153D3A16663

Despised?
Emotionally scarred as a child by WC were you???

[rett]

The comments said after the homeless guy gave up the other guy crushed his throat. I agree with your comments about those guys.

Does anyone know if a criminal case panned out?

[Matthew]

The problem is I was being sarcastic about the sprawl, its not that easy to do it’s a fight once you sprawl because if you have to sprawl out of a shot that means he is in deep on you and its now a scramble, a bad takedown can be stuffed with a level change and using the forklift or even a underhook and circle out, heck a level change and stiff arm can work against it, a good shot where they are in deep on your legs sprawl and that means a real fight: wh*zzer, cross face etc all have to be used and if he turns the corner, ducks out etc you are into another fight, and even good wrestlers who drill sprawls all the time still get taken down, its simply not that easy to do which is one reason I said we just fundamentally disagree just saying drill the sprawl and singles and doubles are easy to stop..well I simply don’t agree

Good wrestlers can also pull someone down with sensitivity skills without them being "too deep". It is the same essence of a sprawl, but with lateral movement (and also potentially as you mention underhooks, or simply angular motion added in). There were some really good push hands videos with Chen Ziqiang and students of Ren Guang Yi that showed a lot of takedowns that are developed from sensitivity that would be really useful to a lot of grapplers.

Another reason was how you interpret grappling, all takedowns for me require a limb to be use and controlled, not just upper body throws but most trips sweeps and leg attacks also include control of a limb, usually the lower body and this to me is grappling, just as a sprawl is grappling because you have body contact, and usually an underhook or ****zer controlling their upper limbs

I would somewhat agree, but in alot of TCMA, (and very easily seen in Taiji) I see there are take downs that position the person to use one arm/one leg or use a simple body mechanic relying on sensitivity.

Most takedowns require you to unbalance the opponent and to me this is grappling, and since we don’t agree on this point it seems a bit silly to keep discussing it lol

If that's what you want. Some believe Taiji push hands is not what most refer to when they say grappling. Also, beyond grabbing the person or tying up both limbs, there are angular movements that unbalance the opponent without "throwing" that are also takedowns. I think you are right in what I've seen with Most takedowns from Wrestling (both western and Chinese) and Jiujitsu/judo do require grappling as you are defining it, but I feel TCMA has just as extensive a catalog of takedowns that do not require tying up both arms or legs, and thus I wouldn't call it grappling.

As for street fights I know a very good coach who used to do TCMA and JKD who managed to survive multipul attackers using knifes who now teaches a knife defence system based on grappling and limb control, because he learned from first hand experience a knife fight is about limb control, controlling the opponents ability to move and hurt him at close range, which sounds like grappling, is it the only approach no but it’s a good one and since he teaches in a very rough city here in the UK and has a lot of students one that seems to work well

Thanks for sharing this. I've always taken knife-grappling defense courses with a grain of salt (I've only seen about 3 of such type classes all from different teachers) because I see techniques where the holder of the knife is so close to the guys face, that in the demo it is too unrealistic.

Who are those guys who are pretty famous for "realistic" weapon scenario training? Dog Brothers I think?