Fukien/Fujian White Crane

[Hendrik]

Ron,

Think and read as you love. I am ok to accept you as who you are.

Your intention is clear.


Also, one doesn't have to know Steve jobs to have iPhone and use iPhone. But if one doesn't have an iPhone showing steve jobs letter doesn't make one has an iPhone.

[Hendrik]

A little bit of advice, if you didn't deliberately try to come across as a "Know-It-All" then maybe you'd be treated a little different and the discussions would flow so much better. But when you come across as believing that you and only you have all the answers well mate it just makes it look like "you are up yourself!"

No one person has all the answers. That's why the Martial Arts are such a wonderful journey! Focus on the journey Hendrik and forget about the destination. Be prepared to learn from others and to curb your ego and you will find a whole new world of learning will open up for you.> Ron

You are missing the point. The bottom line is those charts dont tell the true Chinese stories. This, it cannot brought to life in the reality. Meaning those who follow these will not get the process to get the Kung fu but get stuck in seems correct ideas.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You two need to stop making this personal and doing this crap over these threads.
Ron, this is an english speaking forum, when you post something in a different language then you should translate it too.
Hendrick, if you are not gonna be productive in a thread, then don't post or at least don't be disruptive.
Cool?

[sanjuro_ronin]

A clip that I like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w9Nu-FdB0o

[Minghequan]

Hendrik:

Ron,

Think and read as you love. I am ok to accept you as who you are.

Your intention is clear.


Also, one doesn't have to know Steve jobs to have iPhone and use iPhone. But if one doesn't have an iPhone showing steve jobs letter doesn't make one has an iPhone.

What the F!

Hendrik:

You are missing the point. The bottom line is those charts dont tell the true Chinese stories. This, it cannot brought to life in the reality. Meaning those who follow these will not get the process to get the Kung fu but get stuck in seems correct ideas.

Okay Hendrik, You say the Charts are missing the point then please go ahead and tell us all exactly what this missing point is! Tell us all what the the true Chinese Stories are. Please share!

Hendrik, if your not willing to share then please simply say nothing. Otherwise you simply end up looking like a "Story Teller!"

Once again I ask you a few very direct, very easy to answer questions:

!/. Please inform us all exactly how many actual White Crane Training Manuals you have actually written and had published?

2/. Who exactly did you train with that actually taught you White Crane?

3/. How many years did you physically practice and learn White Crane Gongfu?

I ask this simply because it will serve to educate us all exactly where it is you are coming from with your statements as made here.


After all Hendrik, I have answered everyone of your questions and then some!

I have shared openly my views about the subject, time for you to do the same .... please!

One more question:

Hendrik, Please tell me why you would be one of the people I should turn to for knowledge of White Crane Gongfu?

I, along with the others here await your reply.

If your not willing to answer these very easy questions, then take your own advice, go home!

you are not serious wanting to find out what is going on in White Crane. that is what I pick up from here. So, I am out of here.

Great, then stop wasting our time and let those of us who are actually WILLING TO SHARE & DISCUSS get on with it! Bye bye!

[Minghequan]

sanjuro_ronin:

You two need to stop making this personal and doing this crap over these threads.
Ron, this is an english speaking forum, when you post something in a different language then you should translate it too.
Hendrick, if you are not gonna be productive in a thread, then don't post or at least don't be disruptive.
Cool?

Hey thanks. Great advice. Nothing personal about this for me. Just trying to make sense of Hendrik's innocuous statements which he refuses to clarify or expand upon. Last time I looked this was a discussion forum. Let's all share!

Agreed, I did offer a translation to the Charts posted. Hope you found something small of interest in them. Perhaps you care to discuss your views on this?

I also agree, if one is not prepared to expand upon or fully explain the statements they make and not willing to share and be productive then better they say nothing at all.

[Minghequan]

sanjuro_ronin:

A clip that I like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w9Nu-FdB0o

Please share what it is you like about this particular clip?

What are the aspects of the performance that you like?

[Hendrik]

白鶴牶乃「鶴」與「武術」經由象形而取意之仿生思維所融合而成的牶法。
The White Crane Fist is a style that was developed by combining the animated imitation of the "Crane" and the "martial arts" concepts.

本文依據中國武術功、法（形）的技擊本質，歸結出外顯可見與內斂不可見之形氣神的身體現象，研究架構如圖三 所示：

This text was based on the skilled sparring on the Chinese martial arts Kung(cultivation) and Fa(form) essential basics. Finalized something that one may see the body phenomena of the Form, Chi, and Shen externally but not internally. The research configuration is shown in Diagram 3.

1.　白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.

象形取意的仿生思想：　Ideas are mimic from pictographic forms of action (from animals )for the thoughts of animation.

武術技擊 (martial art sparring)----------->白鶴牶（White Crane Fist)-------->(仙禽－鶴) immortal-Crane
白鶴牶（White Crane Fist)------------->人（Human)

2. 武術功法：Martial art cultivations and methods-------->
四功 （the four cultivations）：吞 (inhale)，吐 (exhale)，浮 (flow)，and 沉 (sink) 功練氣(method in breathing)
四法 （the four methods）： 飛 (fly)，嗚 (yell)，宿 (rest)，and 食 (eat) 定精神 (To set the inner soul)

3. 陰陽五行 (Yin-Yang, the five elements)－－－－－－－－＞
外顯可見的運動形態 （The movement gestures may be seen externally）--->
內斂不可見的生命能量 （Ｔhe vital energy may not be seen internally)


4. 形氣神三位一體的身體觀（The body view of "Form, Chi, and Shen" three in one as an integral.
形：　運動的形態 （The posture of movements）.　
氣: 吐納之術 （The ultimate method of exhalation and inhalation）.
神: （意識思維） The thinking of consciousness.

白鶴牶的身體拍哲理 （The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist）

Figure 3: The research configuration Chart.

the following are my views on the above chart for those who is interested in technical details.


1,

it is well know that White Crane is a martial art, and the early White Crane core on MOMENTUM handling method 勢法 and it always is because Chinese martial art is a momenum handling game.



As it is said in the classical writing
<方七娘白鶴拳十五勢> Fang Chi Niang white Crane 15 momentum type.

這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法，當是當時所傳教的。 This 15 momentum type should be the earliest recorded in the Kuen Po. This is what was taught in White Crane at that early era.



2, take a look at the above chart, it mentions NOTHING about Momentum handling method/type or 勢法.

How can such a chart be the 白鶴牶的運動哲學: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements. when the core of the core or the goal , the momentum handling type is not mention?



3, Wing Chun Kuen is a derivative of one of the early White Crane 15 momentum handling method/type, namely the facing sun momentum handling type.


十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢]……。

within the 15 momentum handling type, facing sun is number 5th. disregards what the opponent's momentum type one always can use this facing sun momentum handling type.


4, further more the so called daoist knowledge about is also distorted.

4. 形氣神三位一體的身體觀（The body view of "Form, Chi, and Shen" three in one as an integral.
a, 形：　運動的形態 （The posture of movements）.　
b, 氣: 吐納之術 （The ultimate method of exhalation and inhalation）.
c, 神: （意識思維） The thinking of consciousness.



it is Jing, Chi, and Shen, not Form, Chi, and Shen.

a, Form is not the common denominator but Jing or the body's chemistry component is.

b, Chi does not only mean 吐納之術 exhalation and inhalation, but more and extended to the control the Qi flow in the body.

c, shen is beyond 意識思維 or intention and thinking or the thinking of consciousness. Shen is the energy to aware. got nothing to do with thinking.



5, thus, the above chart are a modern composed using different components however they dont integrate. sure it looks grand but it is useless because the person who wrote it has no experience in what it is.



so, do you want to make it works or do you want to keep dropping names and all kind of sounds grand writing but goes no where in the reality?

[TenTigers]

I really like the Wing Chun Bak Hok samjien kuen.
I am not crazy about the elbow position on the strikes.
I can see how the raised elbows can open up an opening, but structurally, it is weak and will not hold up against a stronger bridge.
It also breaks alignment for the strike.
I find this curious.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please share what it is you like about this particular clip?

What are the aspects of the performance that you like?

Well, that was how I was taught sanjan so...obviously I like it because of that
That aside, to me and how I was introduced and taught sanjan/sanchin/samchien/sam boo jin was that it was a development form and that it was to develop the muscles and ligaments with a combination of dynamic tension and explosive "jing".
Depending on the system ( or even the training being done at the time), one prioritizes one aspect over another of makes them "equal".
In that clip, that is what I see.
But of course I may be bias.

[Mr. C]

Not for anything, Mr. Goninan, but according to this link:

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums//i...showtopic=9117

On the 24th of this month, you were looking for someone to translate one of the charts you posted here. What gives? didnt YOUR white crane teacher, mentor or advisor give you this information? Did he give it to you in english? I'm starting to think that your the guy with the EGO, posting what look to me to be common recognition plaques and certificates, quite popular nowadays after some contribution.

[Minghequan]

Hen****,

I've grown tired of your crap.

You refuse to answer questions put to you!

You throw up "smokescreens" at every available opportunity and basically contribute nothing of any real value to the discussion!

Then you come on here and claim that only YOU know the real way and everyone else is wrong!

The charts also don't mention the Eight Fighting Principles ~ Ba Tse. It doesn't mention Xiao, Die, Shou, Chu, Zhan, Zhuan, Fan, and Ce either. It also doesn't mention Power & Five Rules (Jin Li, Wu Tse Li) or Five Elements Theory (Wu Hsing / Wu Xing). Not to mention Four Gates Theory (Sz Men), Inside & Outside Gates (Jung Men, Bien Men), Upper, Middle & Lower Areas (Sang Pan, Zhong Pan, Xia Pan), San Jiao Shen Fa, 松 'Song’ nor the He Quan Quan Jue Fist Poem to the such as "Tuck in Tailbone, buttocks Song, Song and Yi Down. Release Song into your whole body and muscles".

In fact, there is a great deal the charts shown DON"T mention! Does that make them of any lesser value? I think not. It is all part of the on-going learning process (that is for those who don't think "they know it all").

You see you have taken these charts and twisted them to suit yourself.

Have you read the following pages of the book/author from which these charts are reproduced here??? .... Let me answer for you (as we all know just how you love answering questions put to you!!) ..... NO!

To take such a stand as yours, to place yourself above those who actually train in White Crane Gongfu is just plain silly and self aggrandizing!

You are just a WING CHUN guy.

You have never trained in White Crane Gongfu! Yet you claim to know all there is about it! Can't you see just how silly this truly is?

But then "know -it-alls" are blinded by themselves!

Hendrik, you have nothing of value to offer this discussion. I sincerely doubt you ever will until you get "over yourself"

[Minghequan]

Mr. C

Credability? (SIC)
Not for anything, Mr. Goninan, but according to this link:

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums//i...showtopic=9117

On the 24th of this month, you were looking for someone to translate one of the charts you posted here. What gives? didnt (SIC) YOUR white crane teacher, mentor or advisor give you this information? Did he give it to you in english? (SIC) I'm starting to think that your the guy with the EGO, posting what look to me to be common recognition plaques and certificates, quite popular nowadays after some contribution.

Mr. C,

Hey thanks for your post and your interest.

What style of White Crane do you do to be interested in this discussion?

To start with if your going to have a go at someone over their quality then should you not also be of quality? By this, the actual term you mentioned is spelt "Credibility" not "Credability" (sic).

Yes I did post on Emptyflower. I am active on a number of forums and I seek out differing points of view to my own. Nothing wrong with that. I posted the charts to see if others shared the same translations as I have. Sadly, no-one entered into this matter and so it was left where it stands.

I am no doubt you are aware that Chinese hanzi and in particular that associated or related to Chinese Martial Arts can and all too often is, interpreted in a great variety of ways and meanings. This is no different.

It can be the same with the English written word ... subject to the interpretation of the reader.

Yes my White Crane guides/mentor did actually give me their interpretation. Thank you.

Of interest is people I know from other styles of Chinese Martial arts also gave their views on the same thing. It has been interesting comparing the various translations received and again I add that their has been some considerable differences in same. I guess it all comes down to personal experience and perspective ... would you agree?

I can ensure you that the so-called "plaques" or "certificates" as you put it are not all that common nor easily obtained. Maybe they have been for you? ... I don't know nor would I ever dare to assume so on your behalf. That would be wrong now would it not?

Thanks for your interest and discussion anyway.

Anything to say on the actual subject of "Fukien/Fujian White Crane?"

[Minghequan]

Ten Tigers:

I really like the Wing Chun Bak Hok samjien kuen.
I am not crazy about the elbow position on the strikes.
I can see how the raised elbows can open up an opening, but structurally, it is weak and will not hold up against a stronger bridge.
It also breaks alignment for the strike.
I find this curious.
__________________

Interesting. I do not claim to know all that much about Wing Chun even though I have a lot of friends who do this wonderful style.

I have to agree with you regarding the position of the elbow and the lack of protection it affords. And yes, from a structurally point of view it does seem that the bridging hands would be weakened.

Body-Energy-Meridian-Alignment as I put it, is a vital aspect of our own White Crane Gongfu. The correct alignment leads to a better expression of energy as well as structural integrity and protection.

Ten Tigers, I really enjoy discussion with you. It's interesting and I think I just may have to spend some more time with my friend from Hung Kuen to look at the areas of a possible connection or at least and influence of White Crane. Thank you!

[Hualong]

Ron,

Did you photocopy this picture and put your head on it?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...furuandon.jpg/

The picture shows Master Ruan Dong, Feng Wu, and David Williams who was a member of your association before you photocopied your head onto this picture, and then sent it to people as confirmation that you have met Master Ruan Dong.

If you want to deny it I am sure that David Williams will come on here himself and say something about it.

Well, can you answer this?

Or are your moderator buddies going to remove my post again?

Hualong