Fukien/Fujian White Crane

[Minghequan]

Sanjuro_ronin:

Well, that was how I was taught sanjan so...obviously I like it because of that
That aside, to me and how I was introduced and taught sanjan/sanchin/samchien/sam boo jin was that it was a development form and that it was to develop the muscles and ligaments with a combination of dynamic tension and explosive "jing".
Depending on the system ( or even the training being done at the time), one prioritizes one aspect over another of makes them "equal".
In that clip, that is what I see.
But of course I may be bias.

Okay. What was the style/form of the SanZhan you were taught? I ask simply so I may know from where you are coming from.

If I'm not mistaken the SanZhan on that clip is from the Wen (Ong) Gong Shr Wushuguan of the Pan family. As such their are some slight differences between this line and the line of Master Su YingHan.

The Pan style seems somewhat more externally focussed perhaps even static and ballistic in its expression whereas the YongChun version of Master Su Yinghan is somewhat more connected (at least that's how I see it but then I'm certainly no "expert" nor do I claim to be!). I guess at the end of the day it all comes down to a matter of perspective and what you are seeking to take away from the form.

[Minghequan]

Hualong,

Okay I get it. You don't like me. That's okay. There are people I'm not that fond of either.

The short answer is no I did not "photocopy" or any other form of imagery to superimpose my head on that image but I do know who did and have dealt with that person/matter to the result that said person is no longer a member of my school/association. I could give you a name but I doubt that would have any impact on the issue. (By the way, I have visible tattoos on my forearms so its not a very good attempt at that).

Secondly, I don't have any "Moderator Friends" here so I really don't know what you getting at here. If you have a problem with this forum and moderation then take it up with them directly.

Lastly, it seems that types like you sadly have little better to do then trawl the Web seeking down posts by myself and most likely others in a rather sad attempt to ply personal (even though we have never met) and political (Go figure!) agendas

Now, if you have something you wish to add to the actual discussion instead of peddling martial arts politics then I'd be happy to talk with you.

Best wishes!

[Minghequan]

Here's a link that may be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa...eature=related

It's Master Lee Kong of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing performing his Shi er jie dao : 12 joints power form.

Your thoughts?

[Mr. C]

Im sure there are many translations but since alot these martial writings are cryptic and therefore only those in the know, will know and now that you cleared up those certificates as actual proof of your knowledge, I dont understand why would you want to know what others not in your circle, translate them as. I mean, do you have self doubts on what was taught to you? If not then are you posting them to boast? There are many experts here but I cant remember any one of them posting their certificates of qualification. Since you describe yourself as a "seeker", why not just ask about the charts and keep your certificates to yourself. Also It seems there are no self admitted Fujian White Crane experts on this board, so what do you hope to "seek" here?

FYI, I was impressed with 3 branches of Fujian crane when I first started learning CMA, the closest I came to studing it was a derivative ; Ng Mui Kuen. I do however still appreciate the parent art. I have read what people here have written about it and only found Eric Ling and Hendrik credible. (Is my spelling correct?) I will leave you to your discussion and wish you the best in "seeking" the answers.

[Blacktiger]

Ron,

Did you photocopy this picture and put your head on it?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...furuandon.jpg/

The picture shows Master Ruan Dong, Feng Wu, and David Williams who was a member of your association before you photocopied your head onto this picture, and then sent it to people as confirmation that you have met Master Ruan Dong.

If you want to deny it I am sure that David Williams will come on here himself and say something about it.

Well, can you answer this?

Or are your moderator buddies going to remove my post again?

Hualong

This has all be played out a few times already:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...ad.php?t=56450

[Mr. C]

studing should be studying....at least in this thread

Thanks for reminding us Black Tiger.......I guess history does repeat itself.

Let me not waste anymore bandwidth

Take Care

[Hualong]

Ditto

His a waste of time.

Bye

[sanjuro_ronin]

Threads get locked and closed when people start making things personal and calling other frauds and so forth.
Doesn't matter WHO starts the thread, the moment it gets to that point then the thread is locked.
If you guys wanna discuss FWC, crane and if you don't agree with each other, fine, state your reasons but keep it civil.
And Ron, stop asking people about their lineage because their views MAY not be the same as yours, ok?
If you don't care for a poster, ignore them.

[fan]

ron, thanks for your sharing. what you wrote on white crane kung fu tallies with my own notes and expands on them. what you have provided is usable information which i can use as cross reference and pointers. i understand you are not asserting what you write is the final word but rather you are seeding a discussion on white crane kung fu which others can hopefully add to or clarify in an open, constructive manner. here's my token contribution: in the far east, sifu lee kang is indeed a reputable white crane master. hope to hear more about sifu lee and his art!

[Minghequan]

Mr. C:

Credibility, Thanks Ron
Im (SIC) sure there are many translations but since alot (SIC) these martial writings are cryptic and therefore only those in the know, will know and now that you cleared up those certificates as actual proof of your knowledge, I dont (SIC) understand why would you want to know what others not in your circle, translate them as. I mean, do you have self doubts on what was taught to you? If not then are you posting them to boast? There are many experts here but I cant remember any one of them posting their certificates of qualification. Since you describe yourself as a "seeker", why not just ask about the charts and keep your certificates to yourself. Also It seems there are no self admitted Fujian White Crane experts on this board, so what do you hope to "seek" here?

FYI, I was impressed with 3 branches of Fujian crane when I first started learning CMA, the closest I came to studing (SIC) it was a derivative ; Ng Mui Kuen. I do however still appreciate the parent art. I have read what people here have written about it and only found Eric Ling and Hendrik credible. (Is my spelling correct?) I will leave you to your discussion and wish you the best in "seeking" the answers.

I answer quickly as I don't want to get bogged down in an "Internet P#ssing Contest"

1/. I went to a few different people because they all will have different takes on the charts. I am a great believer in learning (you should try it).

2/. What I know is not the subject of this discussion. Neither was the issue of certificates displaying of who I I know until Hendrik brought it up. Hendrik went down that road, not I. For what its worth, I simply responded.

3/. To boast? What in the blue hell am I supposed to be boasting about?

4/. Re: Certificates .. Read No 2/.

5/. What do I hope to seek here? Simple: exchange, good discussion, learning different people's points of view (without the usual personalised agendas and petty politics) .... Nothing wrong with that!

Which 3 branches of White Crane impressed or interested you? it would be interesting to know and what about them impressed you?

Eric Ling has done a great deal of research on the subject of White Crane. Some of his stuff is very good and interesting, worthy of merit. Some of it sadly is a little political and example of this is what he wrote concerning GM Ruan Dong and GM Huang Xian Xian. I also feel or am under the impression that his approach to Crane is a commercial concern.

Hendrik on the other hand ..... well!

Thanks you for the discussion.

[Minghequan]

Mr. C :

OOps
studing should be studying....at least in this thread

Thanks for reminding us Black Tiger.......I guess history does repeat itself.

Let me not waste anymore bandwidth

Take Care

Sorry you feel that way. It has been interesting. Thanks for the discussion!

[Minghequan]

Hualong Ditto

His (SIC) a waste of time.

Bye

Hualong,

Bye!

[Hendrik]

For anyone who is interested to see a real deal from the ancient China, here is one.
This is the chart of Emei 12 Zhuang the ancient art which is fused with White Crane to create the Siu Lin Tau art which later become Wing Chun Kuen.

This is the most top view or Chart of this ancient system which is preserve in the Beijing Museum today.

here are details under this chart.


1, the top row right above to the box is the 12 type of technics.

2, The box means the frame the 12 type of technics serving.
In side the box with the drawing of human, dragon....ect means the physical world we are living in.
the letter in the middle of the box stated Ying Yang explicit implicit....
The character in the left means application of the art. the character in the right means body /soul/ engine of the art.
The character at the bottom of the box means form, shape, material/physical.

3, the three character supporting the physical world box is the Jing Qi and Shen.

4, The box in the most bottom supporting the Jing Qi and Shen, is the Tatagatha's four wisdom. within the four wisdom box is the true emptiness wonderful existance. and in the very middle of this box is the Buddha nature.

5, there is a dotted line on the left connect the top row to the application of the middle box to the bottom box. this is the lively characteristics of the buddha nature.

6, there is a dotted line on the right connect the top row to the body of the middle box to the bottom box. this it the freedom characteristics of the buddha nature.




Thus, there are lots and lots of details how Martial art, Daoist practice, Buddhism fuse together and all the details in training to attain each type of kung fu. it is much much more complex then most in the west think. it is practically a technology and with details process.


It is this type of quality and details which I use as reference when doing research into the acient art.

Wing Chun Kuen got it's Zen and Qi from this art. in fact, the sealing off and close off, of Wing Chun is from this art. Wing Chun is not doing what most southern fist call the Lien Sil Dai Da or hit and cancle in the same time. but expert in Sealing off and close off. that is the trade mark of Wing Chun. seal off.....

There are details and details can be investigate and discuss. and sure, i know this because i have spend 30 years in the search among with lots of friends who help me.

[Minghequan]

Sanjuro_ronin:

Threads get locked and closed when people start making things personal and calling other frauds and so forth.
Doesn't matter WHO starts the thread, the moment it gets to that point then the thread is locked.
If you guys wanna discuss FWC, crane and if you don't agree with each other, fine, state your reasons but keep it civil.
And Ron, stop asking people about their lineage because their views MAY not be the same as yours, ok?
If you don't care for a poster, ignore them.

Thanks for your post. I just happen to agree with you!

The very moment you decide to call any Martial Arts practitioner a liar, fraud, or to bring their character into questions is when your own character is being brought into question! I have been guilty of this here in regards to Hendrik. For that I apologise. The only reason I asked Hendrik for an explanation of what White Crane he has trained in was to get an idea as tho upon what he was basing his claims about the art. For what I can see, he is a Wing Chun and not White Crane person. Nothing wrong with that! Just be honest and say so.

When you call the experiences and skill of another Martial Artist into question then you call your own skill and experience within the Martial Arts into question!

So if you must stand in judgement of me (or any other person for that matter) look at what I do, what I teach on the floor. How I treat my fellow seekers at our school. How I treat my family, friends and people in everyday life as that’s true Martial Arts .... Wude.

It’s not who I trained with. it’s not what certificates I hold. It is found purely in what I teach.

I’m not going to delve deeply into the lives of others in my life. Certainly not to any extent whereby I give out personal info or pass judgements on others. this is not the place to do so and I have no right to bring others lives into the revealing of mine.

I’m not going to rave on about my Martial Arts history. History deals with the past. I’m far more interested in the future and where I / we are headed! I will however shed some light on the views that shape me as I now am.

The White Crane I teach is my own.

Even though it’s influences, it’s core may be found in the White Crane Gongfu / Wushu of others .... it is, without a doubt my own White Crane.

It has been influenced by my own personal experiences and understanding (or lack of some might say!) within the Martial Arts. it has been influenced by my own beliefs as to what the Martial Arts should be. It has been influenced by my own personality, physicality, philosophy, lifestyle, environment, needs, wants, desires and lastly my own unique, creative expression!

The truth be told (If not readily admitted to by most) is that we all “influence” or “create” our own expression of the Martial Arts even if it is an already established style. We each make it our own.

It’s sad that far too many have ignored this fundamental, essential truth and aspect of human nature and have attempted to set what they were taught into concrete. Cement teachings that were meant to free the individual to take and make the teachings that of their own. Their own expression and art.

I am at heart a good human being whose main aim has always been the improvement of myself and those who walk this path with me. As such, I genuinely enjoy hearing from others and welcome their input and comments.

However, if your desire to contact me or your request for information is based in a political or personalised agenda, I will simply try to take Sanjuro_Ronin's sage advice to ignore you and offer no reply.

[Minghequan]

Fan:

ron, thanks for your sharing. what you wrote on white crane kung fu tallies with my own notes and expands on them. what you have provided is usable information which i can use as cross reference and pointers. i understand you are not asserting what you write is the final word but rather you are seeding a discussion on white crane kung fu which others can hopefully add to or clarify in an open, constructive manner. here's my token contribution: in the far east, sifu lee kang is indeed a reputable white crane master. hope to hear more about sifu lee and his art!

Thank you for entering in the discussion. As for your all too kind words, well I'm really not worthy. I am simply a seeker of the way like most others on this forum.

As such, I am here to discuss and learn .... nothing wrong with that in my book!

Lee Kong (Kang) is a good friend and his White Crane has had a wonderful impression on my own ... not only in the advancing levels but right throughout what I teach and how I approach it all.

I am very fond of his performance of the Shi er jie dao : 12 joints power form shown here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBPa...eature=related

It has a power, a spirit, an essence, an expression that just seems to "speak" to me in untold ways.

Wonderful!

He serves as the Technical Master and Advisor, the Martial Arts School Consultant to myself, my own expression of White Crane and my school.