Does modern sports science debunk trad. kung fu training?

[IronFist]

Again I'm limited for time, so I will try to make this brief.

Ok, we're all familar with the traditional kung fu training principles, for example:

"Carry this jar around using tiger claw. Every 2nd week, add one cup of sand the the jar, when the jar is full one will achieve success."

or, more generally speaking

"do this weight bearing movement. after every x amount of time, do something to increase the weight by y units. when y has been increased to it's maximum, you will be strong."

the latter example can be jumping out of a pit and digging it deeper each week, or lifting a barrel with more and more weight in it, etc.

But, modern exercise science tells us, however, that this simply doesn't work. If you start out benching 50 pounds, and add two pounds per week, in 10 years you will be benching over 1000 pounds. Obviously, for many reasons, this won't work. Isn't this the same principle as the kung fu methods mentioned above? If this example is extreme, consider one of the following:

1) do 1 pushup today, increase by 1 each week. Sounds easy right? MAYBE after the first year you will be doing 53 pushups. I doubt by the second you will be doing 105, and definately you will have failed this method long before the third year comes to an end.

2) run 1 mile at top speed. each week, increase by 1 mile. You won't be running anywhere near 50 miles at the end of a year.

Am I totally missing something here? Someone who understands what I'm saying, clarify for me.

Or are the old kung fu methods mostly just "legend" and no one really does them...

Iron

[SevenStar]

"the latter example can be jumping out of a pit and digging it deeper each week"

LOL, I actually tried that when i was a sophmore in high school. My dad was ****ed when he found out, and made me cover the hole back up.

I understand what you are saying. The human body has its limitations - it can only go so far. I have a friend (he's an advanced student in my class) that can do 150 pushups nonstop - about 4 months ago he could only do 40. He pushed himself to the extreme. That of course has its limits - I doubt he'll ever get to 300 - but I have been wondering if maybe those techniques were just used as examples to get students to strive for something. You can wear jump shoes, or dig up your back yard in an attempt to be able to eventually have a 12 foot vertical jump. You may never get there, but as long as you THINK you will, then you may never stop trying.

This has the makings of a good thread. Let's keep it going.

"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A fool speaks because he has to say something."

[Grappling-Insanity]

I used to be able to do 225 pushups in one try :) . And these were clean chest to the ground type. Now I can only do like 40, weights r way better IMO.

[IronFist]

Sevenstar! That's badass!!!! did it work? I've always wanted to try it, but couldn't dig a hole.

Did you know, the thing that is left out of the english translation is that you are supposed to bind your knees (or just not move them) so that you're jumping with only your toes, and start the hole at an inch, not feet.

My point was, training like this has to be cycled (as so eloquently pointed out by your friend and mine, Pavel Tsatsouline). So, maybe jumping out of a hole until you plateau, and then starting over with the hole a little deeper than which you first started from, etc.

Iron

[Kumkuat]

Actually, to train the dantien area, you had to bind your knees and ankels so you can only jump out of the hole using your dantien. Now, THAT'S hard, and I doubt I'll even jump out of a 1 inch hole using my dantien.

[honorisc]

...Got Milk? Lift a female calf from your younger years every day until you are older...by the time the cow is adult you can lift the cow. They are merely akward to handle wiith one arm or hand. If you manage it though, use the other hand to milk the cow simultaneously..:-)
"...But, modern exercise science tells us, however, that this simply doesn't work. If you start out benching 50 pounds, and add two pounds per week, in 10 years you will be benching over 1000 pounds. Obviously, for many reasons, this won't work." What reasons...not obvious to me.?.

"Isn't this the same principle as the kung fu methods mentioned above?" Basically. And basically not.

"1) do 1 pushup today, increase by 1 each week. Sounds easy right? MAYBE after the first year you will be doing 53 pushups. I doubt by the second you will be doing 105, and definately you will have failed this method long before the third year comes to an end." It has been said that Jhoon Rhee, may he Rest In Peace, would do a thousand push-ups a day. These might have been half way to the ground or so push-ups, even so, remarkable. And a point to say one more a day
than you did the day before, at least perhaps can work, of course to a place. One who started counting at one number taking one second to say, on the first second of January would be counting until at least the second week of October, at stopping for eight hours sleep and eating for a total of one hour a day. That seemed relevant when I started it. A baby can take weeks to months (or more or less) to say a first word. It might be weeks before the next word is spoken. They are short words, but after a certain level range of comprehension they might learn a word or so a week. This process is of developing a base level of competance(or Comprehension) then slowly adding to that base seems to be an aspect missing from what you present as the modern exercise science. Also they persist at this attempt of speaking the language (it might be automatic learning, but it gets done (like baked foods or meat on the lit open grill~)like counting to one million in ten in a half months...let the faucet drip over night into a large container. You might end-up with an over flowed container by when you wake to get up and check the container...This process is followed by many children all over the World, theoretically. From following ~ this proceedure babies who did not speak turn into people esentially fleuent in that language.They might not know all the words of that language. As in Kung-fu one might be skilled in a particular style. But they have the comprehension to learn new words or even comprehend the meaning of words they have not heard or at least not used. As in Kung-Fu one who is skilled might be able to comprhend the uses of techniques seen in a new form even though that person has not done that particular technique~ before~.
"2) run 1 mile at top speed. each week, increase by 1 mile. You won't be running anywhere near 50 miles at the end of a year." The thing not captured by this formula is the competancy to run a mile at top speed and not be out of breath. In the jar example, "Carry this jar around using tiger claw. Every 2nd week, add one cup of sand the the jar, when the jar is full one will achieve success." Two weeks is allowed. This might be because The Masters or at least experts knew it could be done with persistance and enough time~ was allowed to develop~. Like the babies or the constant dripping from the faucet.
"Carry this jar around using tiger claw. Every 2nd week, add one cup of sand the the jar, when the jar is full one will achieve success." The Chinese formula seems to have a limit. When you can with the filled jar...success. your running example does not. With the idea behind the running example (not to try to show this general Chinese mastery concept doesn't work~) but to show how to train to run at top speed for great distances. After being able to run at top speed for the distance of a mile without being out of breath then run at top speed for the distance of a mile and a tenth until you can do it consistantly without being out of breath. Run what you did before at top speed adding one tenth of a mile. After you can run this new distance competantly (without getting out of breath) add another tenth. Repeat this as long as you care to~:-).
Perhaps after a point one would excell the training constraints if limited (as to after two weeks add more or the such. Such as babies who after years can learn several words a week if not a day. It is not to be percieved that If I do this then by this time I can... so I calculate if I do it for this length I'll be here.~. It is mathematics not arithmatic~
If you can press fifty pounds for fifteen minutes and then fifty two pounds for fifteen minutes adding two pounds to the press after you can do the current press for fifteen straight minutes? The time constraints in the Chinese thinies was put theree after research of the Human tolerance, likely. Talkies depict Teachers belittling students. theoretically Teachers used the appropriate methods to fuel the student's Will. It just happened that Pride (Arrogance) was an easy stoker~ To do what I've outlined took perhaps dedication and Will...but The experts of at least China in the way back when at least perhaps comprehended it is achievable with a base, steady work, in small increments, over a range of Time...Success.

This Is Kung-Fu--~Work done over Time.

Very whatever, some-such and the so, theoretically possiblly.

Am I totally missing something here? Someone who understands what I'm saying, clarify for me.


Or are the old kung fu methods mostly just "legend" and no one really does them...

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[shaolinboxer]

Old training methods are simply that, OLD. Many of them are similar to russian strength training, which focuses on large interconnected muscle groups instead of isolated muscles.

Some of them work well, but the old "jump over a corn stalk as it grows everyday and you'll be able to leap 7 feet high with ease" is a little unrealistic.

I think the real benefits some from the training of muscle groups over the entire body.

[premier]

Are you guys serious? have you lost your ability to think on your own? or are you intentionally understanding these training methods wrong?

You can't possibly think that you're supposed to add one cup of sand or whatever every other week to the infinity. No one is that stupid.

[WongFeHung]

okay, so if I follow your thinking, I can take a calf, and plant a sprout, jump over the sprout holding the calf every day until within a few years, I should be able to jump over a tree holding a cow! hmmmm, what if I dig a pit first....does this mean that that picture of the Shaolin monk with the boulder hangin from his genitailia, if he keeps on training, will be dragging a freight train? -not to mention his scrotum will be about ten feet long by then! ewwww! aaaggghhhh! I guess he doesn't wear speedos, huh?

[IronFist]

Premier:

"Are you guys serious?"

Um, yup.

"have you lost your ability to think on your own?"

Actually, this topic is the result of me thinking on my own.

"or are you intentionally understanding these training methods wrong? "

I asked for someone who understands them to explain them to me. You seem to, so how about a constructive post?

"You can't possibly think that you're supposed to add one cup of sand or whatever every other week to the infinity."

Nope, not to infinity, just til the jar is full :)

"No one is that stupid. "

I know. Because jars have bottoms :p

Iron

[SevenStar]

"but The experts of at least China in the way back when at least perhaps comprehended it is achievable with a base, steady work, in small increments, over a range of Time...Success."

Within limit as I said before. If the body didn't have limits, power lifters would be lifting a lot more than they currently can, sprinters would be like the Flash... Of course we will always push harder and go a little further, but the body can only do so much.

"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A fool speaks because he has to say something."

[WongFeHung]

as far as human limits, I went to look up the world records for the high jump and long jump, (it was a pain, and I forgot the exact details..but) the long jump was about 30 feet, and the high jump was like nine feet (correct me if I'm wrong) Olympic trainees train 24/7,(ever see the height gymnasts get?) so did Jet Lei when he was in the China Wu-Shu troupe, so did the original Shaolin monks, and so did every other legendary martial artist we read about who were known for extraodinary feats. So what are the limits of what is or is not humanly possible? The hole jumping is a combination of plyometric training combined with variable resistance-pretty high tech stuff considering it was done centuries ago-and we are just discovering these techniques now. My thoughts? Dig a hole, get some ankle weights and go for it! I have a saying in my school-"we don't set limitations, we set goals and destinations"

[premier]

OK. how about this. those training methods work, if you understand when the jar is full and what are your limits.

[SevenStar]

Iron - I forgot to answer you dude... I got the hole to about four feet deep. this was right around the beginning of spring, and when my father went to prep the yard so he could start his gardening, he found the hole and hit the roof. I wasn't aware of the fact that my legs should've been bound though, so I guess it was all for naught.

Ten Tigers, that's a good quote man. If that's what keeps you motivated, then by all means train by it. When it's all said and done though, there's only so much the body can do.

-SevenStar©

[barnabus]

from my limited research into the subject what ive seen of traditional chinese training is exactly what modern sports theories are proving works the best.

one thing i think that missing from youre analysis of these ideas was that at a point you wouldnt be able to accomplish what youwere doing and have to start over.
(i.e. breaking the cornstock when it wasnt that old and having to plant a new one and start over :mad: )

this constant building of light to heavy work (starting with lightalmost arobic work and working towards doing the same thing with heavier and heavier weights until you cant do it any more and then starting from the beguining again) slowly over time every part of the muscle gets worked. and its so gradual that you astound youreself when you reach those goals without realy thinking about it.

just what ive been able to observe

@B)