Is it still TMA if it doesn't look like TMA?

[-N-]

this is an assumption based on pretense... do you know what his teacher should and should not be doing??

Teacher should be teaching. Doesn't look like that happened because this thread keeps getting longer.

[uki]

Teacher should be teaching.

teacher teaches as teacher teaches.

Doesn't look like that happened because this thread keeps getting longer.

maybe you are simply moving too far away.

[IronFist]

Because the true to form people have no clue. And neither do people who think TMA is supposed to look like a bad Shaw Brothers movie.

This is how TMA is supposed to do reverse punch.



Step and punch at the same time, push off the back leg, torque the body, drive in and sink it down.

If it doesn't look like that, either the student or the teacher never got past beginner stage.

Doesn't look like any TMA I've ever seen

Can we at least agree that's not a Wing Chun punch?

[-N-]

For example, doing reverse punches from the hip (think the Karate Kid dojo scene) all day long is not going to benefit your punching ability if you are throwing them from a hand chambered at your chin when you fight kickboxing style. The neural pathways are different. The motor recruitment is different. The timing is different. Everything is different other than the fact that they are both punches.

Leaving out the part about karate kid... reverse punch, boxing punch, tai chi punch externally different, internally the same - more so than people think, anyway.

[-N-]

Doesn't look like any TMA I've ever seen

Can we at least agree that's not a Wing Chun punch?

You need to see some praying mantis then. We're as traditional as it gets.

Been working with the students on this on the heavy bag for a few weeks by now.

Still have to yell at them for doing it wrong.

I'll take your word for it on the wing chun part.

[PalmStriker]

If it doesnt look like TCMA it isn't. If I were to engage in combat using a European long sword I would not give up ingrained principle form to confront the enemy nor would I likewise give up that same rudimentary ingrained response to blend in with the fighting demeanor of the opposition. I would feel weakened by compromise.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The problem is people spend way too much time worrying about what they look like or what their style looks like. It really doesn't matter as long as it is effective.

Typical Boxing Stance- Hands up, elbows down, chin tucked, feet narrow (about shoulder width), weight placed on the front foot and leg. This is your typical boxing stance. Sure, there are many variations and styles but this is the basics. Hands are always up for protections, elbows down so punches are not flared, chin tucked to protect the "button", feet are narrow and emphasis on the front leg to produce a more powerful jab. Everything in boxing works off the jab, EVERYTHING.

Typical Kickboxing Stance-Pretty much everything found in boxing except the feet and stance are wider and the front foot does not contain the most weight of the body. Reason for this, you take a few roundhouse kicks to the front leg with all that weight on it you won't be standing long. You want your front leg to be light, able to get off the ground quick. Checking kicks is very important because you don't want to drop your hands blocking a kick and eat a punch doing so. If you choose to block a kick this way, commit, trap, and throw.

Also, realize that stances are about transitions, not posturing. The side stance found in TKD or the cat stance found in Karate can and are effective when used right. Side stance can produce strong side thrust kicks with the front leg, fast and powerful roundhouse kicks to the head, and hook and ax kicks. Don't believe me, look up a few guys named Bill Wallace, Andy Hug, Mirko Cro Cop, or just watch a few K1 tournaments.

You guys who spout off about how the boxing stance is the only stance that is effective either had shi***ty teachers or you have very little experience. That is the truth of it. What cracks me up is Cung Le, who is the fortay of modern San Shou and Kung Fu, fights mostly from a Southpaw stance to set up his side kick, roundhouse, hooks, and every other kick under the sun Cung throws.

The boxing/kickboxing is the comfortable, set up stance. But there are others that one can utilize. Just because most of your MMA fighters fight from this stance doesn't mean sh**it. The best striker in MMA hands down, Anderson Silva, constantly switches and utilizes both orthodox and southpaw as well as traditional and non traditional stances, just look at his fights.

Honestly the best way to fight is figuring out where you are comfortable and what allows you to throw the most weapons.

[ginosifu]

To say that TMA should look like TMA while fighting is one of those Yes and No kinda answers.

It should look like how you train.

Yes it should look like you train. If you practise Jab, Cross & Round Kick, you will look like a kickboxer. If you practice Feint, Shoot Double Leg, Takedown, you will look like wrestler. etc etc.

However, your postition on stance is a bit off. Stance is only a transitional position during your technique. When I fight, I am constantly moving from stance to stance, never static. To say someone has a TKD stance or a WC stance or Hung Gar stance or Karate Stance is not exactly correct. You are always in transition from equal weighted stance to maybe a 70/30 (70 rear leag 30 front leg) Stance to maybe a 90/10 Stance.

Not really. Training things differently from how you are actually going to do them is inefficient (with the possible exception being like some specific and temporary exercise done to correct weak points) from a neurological standpoint.

If you punch with your hands starting at your chin it is a different movement from punching with your hands starting at your hip. I already explained this in greater detail. There isn't really that much carryover and in fact may be some negative carryover if you change techniques during a high stress situation such as a tournament or fight.

Again your position on this only because of a lack of knowledge in this area. Let me explain, in kung fu (in general many style use this) we drive off the back foot, but it is flat on the ground. The drive comes from the ground and travels thru the waist and the waist directs to the strike.

Chambering your hand at the waist starts a muscle memory and structural process where the skeletel system is used along with muscle to deliver the power. Structurally when your fist is at the waist and your elbow is down you connect the skeletel system to your strike.

As a beginner we practice this way, then as you advance we learn how to connect everything from the Hands up Guard. Slowly you learn how to fire your punch right from the guard and still connect the skeletel system and drive from the back foot.

This is how TMA is supposed to do reverse punch.



Step and punch at the same time, push off the back leg, torque the body, drive in and sink it down.

Doesn't look like any TMA I've ever seen

Can we at least agree that's not a Wing Chun punch?

Even though his foot was not planted well during contact, this the correct representation of a Reverse Punch. Notice how he fired his punch right from the guard position.

In the end, if you are applying the priciples of your TMA then what ever you look like does not matter. You yourself will express the principles / theories of your TMA in your own personal way. Every individual is unique and has different learning experiences and different approaches to fighting.

ginosifu

[IronFist]

Chambering your hand at the waist starts a muscle memory and structural process where the skeletel system is used along with muscle to deliver the power. Structurally when your fist is at the waist and your elbow is down you connect the skeletel system to your strike.

As a beginner we practice this way, then as you advance we learn how to connect everything from the Hands up Guard. Slowly you learn how to fire your punch right from the guard and still connect the skeletel system and drive from the back foot.

I've never heard that before, but I guess that answer makes sense. But it's still neurologically inefficient to train one way only to change it to another way. "Muscle memory" would be better if you started punching the way you are going to end up punching.

Boxers start off punching the same way they end up punching.

Regarding stance, I know stances are transitional. But in TMAs that spar in "side stances," I would expect to see them fight in side stances, too. Otherwise, they're wasting their time training that way.


So if we can agree that the punch in that gif was not a Wing Chun punch, then can we agree that if a WC guy punches like that that he is NOT doing WC (at least not at that moment)?

[dirtyrat]

function dictates form.

using boxing as an example.

boxers use their gloves to shield against punches. i've use that once to my advantage. rapping the back of the hand is pretty sensitive. gotta know how to set it up though.

their gloves make them brave so they don't fear breaking their hands, so they're willing to fire head shots without fear, until that is they get into a streetfight and break their hand on some guy's thick skull .

their guard is not optimize against low blows... etc., etc

using judo as an example, generally, guard is not optimize against strikes....

muay thai boxers kicks are strong but they also don't worry about groin kicks even though it still happens...

[uki]

The problem is people spend way too much time worrying about what they look like or what their style looks like. It really doesn't matter as long as it is effective.

more of those mental barriers people need to overcome.

[ginosifu]

So if we can agree that the punch in that gif was not a Wing Chun punch, then can we agree that if a WC guy punches like that that he is NOT doing WC (at least not at that moment)?

It is hard to say because most all CMA use the punching style I described in the above post as a base or basics. After you learn the basics then you move on to the different attributes of your individual CMA style. WC likes Chain punches which the fists are vertically aligned and roll in a circle forward. However, they still use the basics I described above so I would say basically he used a CMA punch, but other TMA can use this method as well.

Is the guy in gif a WC player? Why would you think he or was not doing a WC punch in the first place? In general he could be any number of styles with that punch and yes it could be a WC style punch.

ginosifu

[Dragonzbane76]

IF IT WORKS, WHO CARES......

[bawang]

if something works, its not real kung fu.

[IronFist]

Is the guy in gif a WC player? Why would you think he or was not doing a WC punch in the first place? In general he could be any number of styles with that punch and yes it could be a WC style punch.

So despite the fact that a wing chun punch is vertical fist, delivered from the chest, and that guy is punching with a horizontal fist, delivered from the shoulder, it could be a WC punch?



You have to be trolling me.

Hey did you know French and English are the same language? You see, they both involve the vocal chords and producing consonant and vowel sounds, therefore they have the same fundamental traits, therefore they are the same language.

Kung fu logic

There was nothing Wing Chun about that punch at all. Other than the fact that he was punching, and Wing Chun practitioners also punch, there were no similarities at all.