Actual combat for 'normal' people

[RenDaHai]

Ever hurt someone?

While in a ring it is relatively easy to punch another guy in the face because the violence is sanctioned and safe (-ish). In real life it is much much harder. And not because of difficulty of performing the technique, no. Its the psychology.

To will-fully cause actual bodily harm to another human being is far more difficult than most people can imagine. Even in deadly situations people still have mental barriers towards hurting someone. (There are Wartime statistics about how many soldiers intentionally miss or don't fire their weapons, but I won't quote them here because I can't find their origin. Never the less worth looking up).

One of the reasons I believe wrestling and grappling to be so effective is that to use them you don't actually have to hurt another person, or escalate the violence. Just control them. This means that techniques used in wrestling are very 'usable' in combat, simply because there are not mental barriers to normal people using them. (There ARE mental barriers to crushing an opponents testicles with your tiger claw for example).


So this noted, What moves from your style are good at disabling someone while at the same time not escalating violence? Which moves could a 'normal' person use in combat, which won't offend their instincts, but still be effective? I'm more interested in merciful strikes than locks and holds

[rett]

Just a quick aside

(There are Wartime statistics about how many soldiers intentionally miss or don't fire their weapons, but I won't quote them here because I can't find their origin. Never the less worth looking up).

Keegan or Grossman (or both) iirc. Grossman wrote a book called "On Killing" and I believe the statistics got some air time in connection with that book. In case anyone wants to google it.

[uki]

when i was like 9 or so, i was getting picked on and beat up by the local bully... one day he had me all tangled up on the ground and i consciously stuck my finger into his eye to make him let go of me(that was the last time he picked on me)... i am sure, with out any inkling of a doubt, that if i was placed into a situation that required extreme measures, there would be no mental barriers, only an open road.

[RenDaHai]

@Rett, Cheers!

@Uki, Thats cool. But many people are as sure as you, until it happens. Though it may well be true in your case, there will certainly be many for whom its not.

I think sticking someone in the eye is more palatable than battering their skull, so its kind of what I'm talking about. A classic move.

In Chinese its often called Er long Xi Zhu, Twin dragons inhale pearls (pearls being your eyes, dragons being your fingers). The classic V-sign poke to the eyes is a staple of many styles.

[uki]

I think sticking someone in the eye is more palatable than battering their skull, so its kind of what I'm talking about. A classic move.

having 4 young children whom i love dearly, i can assure you, i can and will batter skulls if the situation arises where my childrens life were in harms way or my own for the matter, aswell as anyone around me... it is a mindset that is instinctively primal and humanity, mainly in the western world, has been puss!fied from it. that is the mental barrier people must overcome... it is our right to live, by allowing others to infringe that right upon anyone else we are simply giving up our right to live... i don't know about anyone here, but it's the one right i intend to uphold in my life.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

having 4 young children whom i love dearly, i can assure you, i can and will batter skulls if the situation arises where my childrens life were in harms way or my own for the matter, aswell as anyone around me... it is a mindset that is instinctively primal and humanity, mainly in the western world, has been puss!fied from it. that is the mental barrier people must overcome... it is our right to live, by allowing others to infringe that right upon anyone else we are simply giving up our right to live... i don't know about anyone here, but it's the one right i intend to uphold in my life.

This is an interesting point that is somewhat indicitive of how society has become. We live in a world, (most of us) of laws and protection that shields us from some of the violence and chaos you can find in other parts of the world. In older times we had animal type instincts to fight and kill when are backs are against the wall, like a caged animal. The problem is this is obviously lost or "put away" due to the comforts or our worlds.

But all of us have the instinctual nature to fight, maim, or kill if necessary, and by whatever means necessary. As for my personal home protection, I have a 12 gauge that sits by my bed which trumps multiple opponents and skilled fighters.

[RenDaHai]

This is an interesting point that is somewhat indicitive of how society has become. We live in a world, (most of us) of laws and protection that shields us from some of the violence and chaos you can find in other parts of the world. In older times we had animal type instincts to fight and kill when are backs are against the wall, like a caged animal. The problem is this is obviously lost or "put away" due to the comforts or our worlds.

But all of us have the instinctual nature to fight, maim, or kill if necessary, and by whatever means necessary. As for my personal home protection, I have a 12 gauge that sits by my bed which trumps multiple opponents and skilled fighters.

I'm not sure we all do. Although we have the killer instinct when it comes to fighting other species, I think our instincts hold us back from killing each other. In the wild many animals fight amongst themselves but few kill their own. When they do it is because of extenuating circumstances, namely a challenge to dominance by an individual or group, or to protect young. Even in the face of extreme danger I don't think the killer instinct simply activates. If it did animals would be killing each other all the time.

Its not easy to hurt our own. Throughout history the enemy is dehumanised before being slaughtered. If anything I think it is our instinct to show submissive behaviour when being beaten, thats what animals do. Fighting against this is hard. Go ahead, smack your dog, see what it does, it will be extra submissive, not extra aggressive.

[rett]

having 4 young children whom i love dearly, i can assure you, i can and will batter skulls if the situation arises where my childrens life were in harms way

I totally sympathize with your opinion here. But just by way of a thought experiment imagine (God forbid) one of your children develops schizophrenia around the age of 20, has a bad episode and attacks you or your family with a knife.

If you're capable of compassionate fighting, this is a situation where you'd probably use it right? So the question is, how would it look, what techniques might you use and so on.

[uki]

If you're capable of compassionate fighting, this is a situation where you'd probably use it right?

compassionate fighting is what anyone would use unless they honestly believe their lives are in danger... the original post was asking about wether or not people could actually bring themselves to hurt others in ways far worse than a typical altercation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lots of people TALK a lot about what they would do, and you get a lot of that "killer talk" in TMA ( breaking necks, gouging eyes, forcing people to watch Pauly Shore movies), but the reality is far removed from that.
None of that is as "easy" as some try to make it sound and people that talk about that stuff tend to forget the OTHER element in the equation: the "bad guy".
I think that people that talk about "killing and maiming" with such a cavalier attitude would, as I have seen, crap their pants if they ever were faced with the real thing.
People have no idea what it is like to take a life, to live with the fact that you took a life.
As the old adage goes, "don't break what you can't fix".
If you can't fix it, don't break it.
If you can't wake someone up, don't put them to sleep.

It's all great to think that one would just go "bezerker" or that somehow one would be able to defeat another person because we REALLY, REALLY want to/have to, but it doesn't work that way.

I want you to picture your worse nightmare, a bigger, stronger attacker, now realize that he is as vicious as you and just as motivated to kill you as you are him, what would you do?

[uki]

I want you to picture your worse nightmare, a bigger, stronger attacker, now realize that he is as vicious as you and just as motivated to kill you as you are him, what would you do?

kill him... actually i would view it more as him committing suicide.

[Fa Xing]

This is something that I have often covered in self-defense classes that I have taught, especially for women. At least in the US, we are taught as children that hitting is wrong, that violence is wrong, and while I 100% agree with that, there are just some people who don't have that social construct.

These are the people we have to be prepared for; but to be perfectly honest, most of us in civilized society (who don't intentionally frequent bad areas) will never have an incident that requires one to defend their self or others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

kill him... actually i would view it more as him committing suicide.

I'm sure they He'd view it the same as he walks over what is left of your corpse.

[Lucas]

Lots of people TALK a lot about what they would do, and you get a lot of that "killer talk" in TMA ( breaking necks, gouging eyes, forcing people to watch Pauly Shore movies), but the reality is far removed from that.
None of that is as "easy" as some try to make it sound and people that talk about that stuff tend to forget the OTHER element in the equation: the "bad guy".
I think that people that talk about "killing and maiming" with such a cavalier attitude would, as I have seen, crap their pants if they ever were faced with the real thing.
People have no idea what it is like to take a life, to live with the fact that you took a life.
As the old adage goes, "don't break what you can't fix".
If you can't fix it, don't break it.
If you can't wake someone up, don't put them to sleep.

It's all great to think that one would just go "bezerker" or that somehow one would be able to defeat another person because we REALLY, REALLY want to/have to, but it doesn't work that way.

I want you to picture your worse nightmare, a bigger, stronger attacker, now realize that he is as vicious as you and just as motivated to kill you as you are him, what would you do?

be glad i carry a blade and then use it if i can. or run like hell, hope i am more agile and know the area better so i can escape, and then call the cops on him...or stalk him and kill him when i can...assuming his murderous intentions to me do not go down.

[RenDaHai]

@Sanjuro

Agree with everything you said, that's what I'm getting at. So in the situation of complete failure to achieve battle trance, what techniques can we fall back on? What techniques are acceptable to our minds?

If your in a state of fear and submission, you don't have the heart or the aggression, you feel weak and defeated, there is only confusion, what techniques can bring you back? Ones that don't require aggression, or strength, ones that can be done with a shaking hand and weak knees. Because this is the time we really need MA technique. If we feel invincible, dominant and angry then we can get by with just a closed fist.