Bai-Si...?

[ginosifu]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Martial arts are combative in nature, and the way mentioned above where challengers fight the students puts an element of pressure and reality into the training that is sorely lacking in many schools.

My Sifu is important to me and anyone that came for him would have to get through me to get there, I don't need a Chinese tradition to feel that way, I would hope that any serious student loyal to their teacher would feel the same way.

As for the bad schools, I am not speaking on this as a youtube/armchair guy. I have made it a point to visit and work out with any martial art/artists I have been curious about every chance I had since I started training, including in Thailand and China. There are some diamonds in the rough that train hard and produce results, but there are also tons of misinformed, dancing, floppy Kung Fu people out there that are not only perfectly happy doing it that way, but in propagating that garbage for the next generation. Youtube is even worse for the most part unfortunately.

I take my training seriously and while I agree that if the quality is low then good teachers will shine, I would prefer that the quality bar was set high across the board, so that the teachers that shine are phenomenal.

Again I don't see how Challenging / Fighting schools will provide quality control.

Here in the USA, Challenging Sifu's or Rivals schools is not popular. If I was to go challenge the fake kung fu guy on the West side of Cleveland, he would probably call the police because I attacked him. Then he would sue me for everything I have.

Yes, old school Kwoons used to challenge each other and this was good back in the day. How will it help keep the fakes and charlatans under control? Here in the USA 99% of all potential Kung Fu students have no clue of CMA protocol and really do not give a crap about that stuff.

In essence.... Even if I was to go challenge the fake guy down the street.... No One gives a CRAP! They will still flock to him in droves because of whatever flashy stuff he gives them or fancy weapon form he teaches them.

Bai Si has it's place and I think it is a good thing, however, for quality control or keeping fakes out ...... Nah.... won't work here.

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

http://mall.cnki.net/reference/ref_r...06071400000010

Sorry it's in Chinese. Took me a **** while on the web to find a link. It is an essay on the Bai Shi ceremony as described in the "Book of Rituals - Inner Chapters" 《礼记·内则》 which is one of the classic texts required for study if you wanted to pass the government exams in ancient China. It is estimated to have been written some where between the Warring States period (6th-3rd centuries BS) and the Qin Dyanasty (mostly 3rd century BC).

So we have classic texts on the ritual that go back well over 2000 years.

Thank you! I will check that out.

Though I think Bawang has a point too.

[jo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....that was all very nice, back in the day of fantasy.

TODAY....RIGHT NOW...there are an uncountable number of charlatans, snake oil salesmen and outright con men who prey on the gullibility of others...while calling themselves "Sifu".

There is no shortage of fools who willingly hand over their cash to bad dance instructors who claim to be martial arts instructors.

WHO GETS TAUGHT, and WHAT they are taught has NOTHING to do with ceremony or cash these days.

Go ahead, live the fantasy...."Ohhhhh...I "Bai Si'ed" with <fillintheblank>!!!!"
...go hand over your money and live the fantasy.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

-jo

[TenTigers]

Harsh words, Uncle Jo.
But well said and true.

[omarthefish]

Thank you! I will check that out.

Though I think Bawang has a point too.

Sure he does. I did not mean to comment on Bai Shi today. I was just responding to the idea that it's a new thing. It's clearly not. How it has changed over the centuries is a different story. Also worth mentioning is that it's virtually impossible to find records of it with regards to MA. It's much more common with literary student/teacher relationships. Most of what's written in the text I cited is written primarily with that in mind. People used to apprentice academic masters far more than military experts.

[omarthefish]

...my point was just if bai shi was done properly, it would be a good way to see a teacher comes from a legitimate line. but i was kind of thinking out loud and hadnt made a conclusive statement

It tells you nothing whatsoever about the legitimacy of the line.

What is shows is that the person who did it, is, in fact, an official member of that line and not much more. A picture of a guy standing next to a famous master only proves they met the guy. It doesn't show they studied with them. Even a pic of a person training with said teacher only shows they trained with him that one time. Only a pic of the Bai Shi ceremony or a look at the quan pu can prove that a person is an official, actual, legitimate student of some particular teacher.

It still doesn't say if they are any good. It just says that the teacher/student relationship is formalized in writing.

[mooyingmantis]

It tells you nothing whatsoever about the legitimacy of the line.....It still doesn't say if they are any good. It just says that the teacher/student relationship is formalized in writing.

Across the street from where I live is a teenager who has been studying TKD since he was four years old. He is now about 15 years old. I see him leave home to train a few times a week. He has all the legitimate certificates from his organization for every belt rank. He is one of the worst martial artists I have ever seen.

Legitimacy goes not equal quality in other arts either. Even good, legitimate lines/arts can produce bad students. Conversely, even bad, illegitimate lines/arts can still produce an occasional excellent student.

[xiao yao]

i see everyones points, its not necessarily going to prove a legitimate line.

but i stick to my view that it holds its place as one (of several) ways of judging quality.... at least in china. ive seen a marked difference in quality between my shifus students and disciples.... a lot of his students are just casual part timers who want to learn some forms for health or recreation in the mornings before work. the disciples are serious about training and sacrifice a lot of time to learn the full system and are more interested in really using and exploring it. they will be the ones who will go on to become the next generation of teachers.

[Yao Sing]

Do you think they would be any different if they DIDN'T Bai-Si?

Is it the attitude of the student or the fact that they did. or didn't do, the ceremony?

[YouKnowWho]

Do you think they would be any different if they DIDN'T Bai-Si?

Is it the attitude of the student or the fact that they did. or didn't do, the ceremony?

If someone beats up one of your regular students, you may not care much. You can always say, "He is just a beginner ...". If someone beats up one of your disciples, it may concern you big time. It's not to your advantage not to train your disciples well because their names will reflect back on you.

[YouKnowWho]

TODAY....RIGHT NOW...there are an uncountable number of charlatans, snake oil salesmen and outright con men who prey on the gullibility of others...while calling themselves "Sifu".

You are talking about one extream. On the other extream, if you have opportunity to be part of the TCMA history, you don't want to miss that chance either.

[xiao yao]

well, its the attitude of the student that counts, but its also the attitude thats caused them to be disciples. either the shifu has seen talent and asked them to bai shi, or they have requested to bai shi, so as to get more knowledge.
the two go hand in hand in china.

and yes, people can baishi to more than one shifu, but it would be better etiquette to get permission from the former shifu, otherwise you would break ties.

[omarthefish]

i see everyones points, its not necessarily going to prove a legitimate line.

but i stick to my view that it holds its place as one (of several) ways of judging quality.... .

Yes. Sure. I just meant to draw some clear lines around what is specifically proves. On it's own, it's just not enough. It's just one of several tools. Also, to judge quality of what? Of the student or of his teacher? The Bai Shi shows that the teacher recognizes the student but it doesn't say anything about the quality of that teacher.

Across the street from where I live is a teenager who has been studying TKD since he was four years old. He is now about 15 years old. I see him leave home to train a few times a week. He has all the legitimate certificates from his organization for every belt rank. He is one of the worst martial artists I have ever seen.

That's pretty analogous. A "certificate of authenticity" or a metaphorical diploma of some sort is only going to be as good as the organization/person who issued it.

My own Shifu, for example, makes pretty much everyone Bai Shi. You can take a class here and there or attend seminars without it but any long term student who expects any one on one training at all does a Bai Shi. So, in his case, raw beginners have all done the Bai Shi. Then you have the Quan Pu. Everyone has one of those too but everyone's content is different. You could go 2 or 3 years without it having any content. Little by little, over time, he lets you copy parts of "THE" quanpun into your personal quanpu. So the quanpu say a lot more about your "status" than the Bai Shi.

As for the money issue, a cash gift to Shifu is part of the ceremony but nobody will tell you how much to give. The specific amount is completely up to you. When asked for advice on how much to give one time, my answer was, "It should be enough that you feel really generous but not so much that it's a financial burden."

Anyways, outta time. Maybe more late.

[TenTigers]

You are talking about one extream. On the other extream, if you have opportunity to be part of the TCMA history, you don't want to miss that chance either.

ok, that given...what if you didn't bai-si, but surpass your Sifu in knowledge and skill?
(obviously a hypothetical question. One would never say such a thing, but just for argument's sake)

[YouKnowWho]

ok, that given...what if you didn't bai-si, but surpass your Sifu in knowledge and skill?
(obviously a hypothetical question. One would never say such a thing, but just for argument's sake)

How can that be possible? Where will your knowledge come from? From another teacher?