interview with master zhou zhen dong

[xiao yao]

i agree

when i practice forms, i take single moves and just repeat them over and over, making sure its perfect. that way its second nature, the movements in mantis are quite difficult, and without repetition of the same thing over and over, it wont be there when you need it. i just have a few moves i work on like this, repeating, practicing both sides, trying different follow ups, different stepping, angles etc.

[Yao Sing]

Master Chan Pui told of a guy who only knew Wah Lum Second Exercise and won numerous fights with only those moves.

Personally I've taught WL Second Exercise as a 2-man drill showcasing multiple applications for the same simple movements.

You don't need to know a lot, you just need to know it well and be able to apply it.

[mooyingmantis]

You don't need to know a lot, you just need to know it well and be able to apply it.

Absolutely Golden!

[18elders]

Hey Dave, your message box is full, it won't accept any messages until you clean some old ones out!!

here's the school address:
8140 West Waters Avenue Tampa, FL 33615
(813) 495-3060

[Yao Sing]

Ok, I emptied the mailbox. Had a bunch of messages about the portable poles I made. Sorry to everyone that I never replied back with the build info.

On topic - I see on the interview website a video with Lan Jie apps. The opening move (wrist to the chin) always bothered me from an anatomical viewpoint. I've always been a fan of the wrist for striking (in my school before I left El Paso I conditioned my wrists and had to break a patio block on my last day) but if you examine the angles involved you find it's not a clean fit.

An uppercut fits neatly under the chin but the wrist doesn't due to the knuckles possibly contacting the body before the wrist gets in far enough to contact the chin. Now I'm sure you've all tried this move so I don't need to struggle finding the words to describe the situation.

I just feel it's weak and not suited to the way it's applied. I would use the rising wrist to block and/or clear the way for the following palm to the face but trying to strike the chin, to me, is a long shot.

Comments?

[iunojupiter]

As my Sifu was saying the other day, the best masters in history only knew at most 2 or 3 forms.
Taiji really only has Yi Lu and Er Lu
"original" mantis was Beng Bu, Ba Zhou, and Lian Jie
Baguazhang has two main forms
xingyi has one big form (or do i have them backwards?)

They may have only had 1, 2, or 3 forms, but they KNEW them... inside, outside, left, right, etc...
We can say we "know" a form, but we're just kidding ourselves I think.

Cheers,
Josh

[iunojupiter]

Ok, I emptied the mailbox. Had a bunch of messages about the portable poles I made. Sorry to everyone that I never replied back with the build info.

On topic - I see on the interview website a video with Lan Jie apps. The opening move (wrist to the chin) always bothered me from an anatomical viewpoint. I've always been a fan of the wrist for striking (in my school before I left El Paso I conditioned my wrists and had to break a patio block on my last day) but if you examine the angles involved you find it's not a clean fit.

An uppercut fits neatly under the chin but the wrist doesn't due to the knuckles possibly contacting the body before the wrist gets in far enough to contact the chin. Now I'm sure you've all tried this move so I don't need to struggle finding the words to describe the situation.

I just feel it's weak and not suited to the way it's applied. I would use the rising wrist to block and/or clear the way for the following palm to the face but trying to strike the chin, to me, is a long shot.

Comments?

Don't forget that you've cleared the way for the strike with a right hook to their attack and left hand sealing of their arm.
However, I generally treat a leading strike as more of a distraction. If he blocks, I'm okay with that, I can sink into the chop to the chest. If he doesn't block, I hit him. If he leans away, I can still move in with the chop.
You're right to a point. The wrist strike doesn't fit nicely into the chin/throat area, especially if the fighter has his chin tucked in and behind the shoulder properly... but... to me, it's really just the distraction. I want him to focus on what's coming at his face. I want him to react to that. If he doesn't, and I get his chin or nose, great. If not, well, on to the next movement.

Cheers,
Josh

[Mantis9700]

maybe the wrist doesnt fit because the application is you raising your right hand to block the oppenents punch, your left hand seals their right elbow and you come chopping down with your right palm on their face or collar bone

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great interview, excellent site with very good videos.
Well done.

[Yao Sing]

maybe the wrist doesnt fit because the application is you raising your right hand to block the oppenents punch, your left hand seals their right elbow and you come chopping down with your right palm on their face or collar bone

My point exactly, although the app is shown as a wrist strike to the chin. I've seen it played like that from multiple Mantis Masters. I'm much more comfortable with the situation as you describe it.

Did you learn it as a chin strike or blocking/opening the left arm to make way for the palm strike?

EDIT: Remember the words of the old Chinese master whose razor thin blade could cut through the thickest bullshit - Hok Sam's Dao says "The easiest practical app is probably the correct app".

[mooyingmantis]

My point exactly, although the app is shown as a wrist strike to the chin. I've seen it played like that from multiple Mantis Masters.

Zhou Zhendong, Shi Zhengzhong and Zhang Bingdou all explain the move as a rising strike to the lower jaw.

[Tainan Mantis]

maybe the wrist doesnt fit because the application is you raising your right hand to block the oppenents punch, your left hand seals their right elbow and you come chopping down with your right palm on their face or collar bone

Yes, this is also true.
The hand rises and falls, either hitting the opponent's hand or their chin or mouth on the lift.

Zhou Zhendong scared the cr@p out of me when he did this technique to me.
He knocked my hands down and lifted his wrists to my chin. THough he did'nt hit me i think, at that moment, after having had my hands knocked down, that his technique would have busted my teeth.

[xiao yao]

there are many interpretations to applications and i think most of them are valid, but all have their specific situations

like kevin said, if the opponents hand is in the way, its a block, if there is no hand, its a strike. also, like josh said, i think it makes a good distraction for the chop, which is the power move.

master zhou (and my old master) have shown many applications where what seems like a feng shou can work just as well as a flick to the eyes. the idea is, just do the move, if the opponents arm is there, it is a block or deflection, if there is no attack or guard obstructing the path, it just strikes

[Mantis9700]

the application as I described is the main way I learned although I have seen the variations mentioned above. For me it makes sense from a common sense stand point. Most experienced fighters will probably keep their chin tucked in which would make it kind of difficult to target with the wrist not to mention painful.

[yu shan]

"Listen to him training, just from the sound you can hear his kung fu is good"

I like this and can relate.