Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

[JPinAZ]

actually I don't think he posted the video, someone else did. But really who cares.

Yes, I know. I'm referring to posting videos in general (on youtube). I fixed my post so there's no further confusion.

[Vajramusti]

looks like a slap fest to me, no real power, only one side actually doing anything the student is being nice....maybe if you could post a clip of you doing sparring, chi sau, and pad work like alan did we can compare the two, otherwise its like night and day.......but i suspect thats not going to happen this side of christmas....or next

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I do neither PB wing chun or CSL wing chun but I wish them both well.

It's not uncommom for non wing chunners to misunderstand some actions of some wing chun folks.
What PB is doing is not a slap fest. The power is there but is controlled-ditto for AO's chops.

In both cases as much power as is needed can be turned on.

joy chaudhuri

[Frost]

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I do neither PB wing chun or CSL wing chun but I wish them both well.

It's not uncommom for non wing chunners to misunderstand some actions of some wing chun folks.
What PB is doing is not a slap fest. The power is there but is controlled-ditto for AO's chops.

In both cases as much power as is needed can be turned on.

joy chaudhuri

really and you know this because you have crossed hands with them both Joy, or because you can recognise the power in their structure?

sincere question because i have seen plenty of people look good against students and in demos who appear to have great structure but who come apart in full contact fights under real pressure, i tend to believe Alan more because he and his guys have video evidence that they can produce that power when needed

PB nor his guys seem to show this yet manage to talk about it endlessly (not PB but his students i should clarify)

[k gledhill]

looks like a slap fest to me, no real power, only one side actually doing anything the student is being nice....maybe if you could post a clip of you doing sparring, chi sau, and pad work like alan did we can compare the two, otherwise its like night and day.......but i suspect thats not going to happen this side of christmas....or next

Like another here who mentions his inability to see you dont even do VT so who cares what YOU think Frosty mate.... why am I even responding to you

[Frost]

Like another here who mentions his inability to see you dont even do VT so who cares what YOU think Frosty mate.... why am I even responding to you

probably because you have a desperate need to be believed mate

And only my friends call me frosty Kevin

i think we all wonder why you respond to so many people telling them they dont do wing chun, cant fight etc yet can only post clips of your teacher having a slap fest i mean if it bothers you that much to respond why not just post the clips...or go and meet phil

[k gledhill]

What it looks like to you is one thing, but I can guarantee you that Philipp packs a punch like a sledgehammer, and his jut sau can just about rip your arm off.

Philipp is a fighter. Always has been. The guy has had more than his share of action and never had to throw more than a couple of punches in order to finish the job, as far as I know.

I've seen people try their ****edest to hit him, and they look like the student in the clip. I've seen it first hand and experienced it first hand.

I know this is only anecdotal evidence and I'm almost positive that you won't believe me, but nonetheless I'm being honest.

In any event, to get on topic, I do respect Alan for being passionate about what he does and for trying to make his thing work for him and his students in the ring. Even if it's not my type of wing chun, more power to him. I wish him success.

Likewise I have had PB in my face too just staying facing him is hard enough for me ...I felt like a revolving door trying to find my center. He showed me my errors, a long list

I too respect Alan for his fighting. BUT the unseen VT , ergo my posts are to SEE VT is not so unheard of.

[k gledhill]

probably because you have a desperate need to be believed mate

And only my friends call me frosty Kevin

i think we all wonder why you respond to so many people telling them they dont do wing chun, cant fight etc yet can only post clips of your teacher having a slap fest i mean if it bothers you that much to respond why not just post the clips...or go and meet phil

I am thinking of another name for you right now, try your telepathic ability

Phil and I will meet if we can figure it out...I have a life and so does he you should try getting one instead of making worthless posts.

Yes I am desperate to be believed, you nailed it

[Vajramusti]

really and you know this because you have crossed hands with them both Joy, or because you can recognise the power in their structure?

sincere question because i have seen plenty of people look good against students and in demos who appear to have great structure but who come apart in full contact fights under real pressure, i tend to believe Alan more because he and his guys have video evidence that they can produce that power when needed

PB nor his guys seem to show this yet manage to talk about it endlessly (not PB but his students i should clarify)

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No- I have not crossed hands with either--and yes and after my years of martial arts and martial sport and experience one can see things. Both appear to have their strengths and weaknesses.
But they are not preaching to me and I am not preaching to them.Of course being face to face is a different thing, you never quite know about real timing and speed from videos- but this is a discussion board- so some educated guesses can take place.

I don't pay much attention to the tiresome and not very articulate marketing by two of PB's followers

joy chaudhuri

[Alan Orr]

exactly...... good post ! depends where guys are on the learning curve to be able to comprehend what they are seeing as examples...

Yes and its clear you have a limited view of wing chun by the way you rant about it wrong if you don't understand it. very funny

[Alan Orr]

You are 100% spot on! Forums are for sharing: of views and opinions. And guess what, a lot of times, they are going to differ. It's pretty obvious, that unless a post say "hey alan, great job, you're awesome, keep up the good work", then you get in a huff, say the poster is 'unsettled', 'doesn't understand', 'can't see' etc. If no one can 'see' what's going on, then why are you posting videos (on youtube) & selling videos if it doesn't show anything?
If some people don't see what you are doing as WC, so what? My advice: get over yourself, stop being so sensitive and grow some thicker skin dude.

You and your guys train hard and you fight hard. It shows in your videos and the records of your guys. But, what I SEE in almost every video of you and your guys doing both tells me you are ignoring some main/basic priciples of WC that I assumed was pretty common among WC practitioners. There, is that 'balanced' enough for your fragile sensitivities?

If you go back and reread my posts to you, you'll see a some of both sides in all of them. If you're going to post up vids, you should be cool with taking the good and the bad. it's just how it goes. Lighten up

I am more than happy to hear people views on wing chun, but as I have seen the styles they talk about first hand - I feel I have more insight to what they can and can't do with wing chun. The guys on this forum that have the most to say about what I do have never had any first hand experience of my system. So it is funny to me when they say things like I am missing the basic principles of wing chun. It is more that very funny. Really with so much missing we can have so much success. Crazy to think about what will happen when we get it right.

I post videos as lots of people email me asking for clips and I also think its good to show wing chun from a system that has a different take of how to use the style. Our body structure is different. I can say that due to 25 years training in wing chun and having checked out so many styles of wing chun around the world.

Its the small minded people that have so much to say but never show anything or prove anything that I find boring to listen too.

[Alan Orr]

really and you know this because you have crossed hands with them both Joy, or because you can recognise the power in their structure?

sincere question because i have seen plenty of people look good against students and in demos who appear to have great structure but who come apart in full contact fights under real pressure, i tend to believe Alan more because he and his guys have video evidence that they can produce that power when needed

PB nor his guys seem to show this yet manage to talk about it endlessly (not PB but his students i should clarify)

Yes agreed. My guys have add over 150 Fights now - MMA from amateur to Pro. Boxing, Kickboxing. I teach Professional MMA fighters who would not come to me if it didn't work. We have many championship Belts, at the Chi Sao event we won 8 out of 9 Golds. None of my guys even post of forums unless someone is talking about us, even then its mostly me that will come on as say something. We are not big forum talkers as we are doing it not talking about it!

We found our answers from my teacher Robert Chu and from testing and gaining feedback in the real world.

[k gledhill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddha_Fist View Post
The question of what defines a boxing method as being Ving Tsun has its merits though. I'm no fan of people who claim that Ving Tsun can take all shapes and forms, and that you can call anything you want Ving Tsun.

I think that the key lies in what Sanjuro brought up in the first page, about Ving Tsun being principle or (I prefer this term) strategy based.

Traditionally there were Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit providing guidance on the strategies that are pursued. A few examples:

Loi Lau, Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chung - Intercept what comes, pursue what goes, attack instinctively when the hands are free
Lin Siu Dai Da - Simultaneous attack and defense

The forms provide guidance on the mechanics while reinforcing habits that are imbued with the strategies. We are introduced to facing (Chiu Ying) right from the get-go through the basic stance, Yi Ji Kim Yuen Ma. Same goes with the punch traveling a straight line (economy of motion) without excessive shoulder engagement (which hints towards the engine behind all actions). You work hard to maintain balance throughout Chum Kiu, while going through quick hip rotations, stepping, etc., so it makes little sense to compromise these habits by working against them in Chi-Sao by leaning on your opponent. Bong Sao is performed in a flick, never held up for long periods of times, as we don't want to remain in a defensive and reactionary position, but rather transition immediately over to the attack (Lin Siu Dai Da). And the list goes on and on...

You can judge whether something is good Ving Tsun based on whether the practitioner adheres to these strategies. Pak Sao, Bong Sao, Jut Sao, etc. are just supporting tools to the main action, the attack. Of course, the bottom line will be whether it works in a fight. But the bottom line is not what defines Ving Tsun. If the bottom line defined whether something is Ving Tsun, then Muay Thai could be called Ving Tsun.

People claim that a video is just a video and that it does not show "what is really going on". I think that on the contrary, videos do give us the opportunity to see in action whether and how the practitioner adheres to Ving Tsun strategies under the given set of circumstances.

Originally Posted by k gledhill , exactly...... good post ! depends where guys are on the learning curve to be able to comprehend what they are seeing as examples...

Yes and its clear you have a limited view of wing chun by the way you rant about it wrong if you don't understand it. very funny

I stand by my response to Buddah fist....time spent is no guarantee you will understand either.

[Alan Orr]

I stand by my response to Buddah fist....time spent is no guarantee you will understand either.

Its not just about time spent, its about experience and understanding the system which you train in.

Why don't you post some clips of your training or better still sparring. Show us what you think works.

[R]

Thanks, but I know how to read. I don't need your silly guidance.

So we're clear, I was talking about the first clip on this thread where you mention you don't use pak, bong, etc (being, in your words, 'beginning' techniques) then later, step back to non-contact range to deomonstrate sparring (your words), and defend with those exact techniques. I was just commenting on your inconsistancies/conttradictions in that video. That's all.
Now, if you are saying that in the end, in WC, we don't focus on the techniques, but more-so the body mechanics and principals of WC, I'd agree.

IMO, after watching your latest string of videos, I would say I see a lot of leaning, pushing, shoving, grabbing, muscling, self up-rooting, giving up space resulting in a lot of your self centerline distortions. For me, this is not in-line with even the basic of WC centerline principles of self centerline. Maybe that's ok in your WC, and more power to you if it's working for you and your guys. And, I do give you credit for hard work and posting clips for your MMA accomplishments and training.
But from my understanding of even the basics of WC, without proper self-centerline, it's hard to argue you're 'using wing chun' since that's where WC starts..

I attended a seminar years ago with representatives from a number of WC/VT systems (WSL/CSL/IC/etc) and Alan was presenting his systems view of how to apply the principles. Now I did a vietnamiese and a HK version of WC in my younger days and found nothing wrong with what I saw in spite of Alan having a different approach than my sifus did. I would suggest that you might not think things were so '''obvious'' should you attend a seminar or drop by Alan's club and have a taste of what his hands feel like. Things are not always as obvious as you might think when being a video critic.

And by the way.. I have no affiliation to the WC community anymore so I have no stake in any systems approach. I do recognise good application of principles and that is more important than anything else to me...

R

[k gledhill]

Its not just about time spent, its about experience and understanding the system which you train in.

Why don't you post some clips of your training or better still sparring. Show us what you think works.

Thanks but I feel that YM > WSL> PB > ME have a better grasp of understanding what I am talking about.
I have shown YOU !! its like corresponding with a brick wall of look at me , cant see you

jpin az hit it, its love me or f off