Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

[Alan Orr]

There are dead people in Thailand, because of elbow strikes to the temple. Not using an elbow because you are risking it, is like saying you don't want to use a fist, because you don´t want to break a knuckle, or have your arm broken by a counter technique.....


Again, I find it hard to believe that someone has a Wing Chun system out there that does not use the elbow as a weapon!


Actually, it would be interesting to see Alan Orr´s opinion regarding the phenomenon of "elbowless wing chun".

Maybe the reason he has never been dropped by an elbow could be have something to do with the way he is training.

Elbows finish fights. We train and defend them for our wing chun and mma. The elbow is one of wing chun's best weapons when used correctly. Ie body power not shoulder power.

[Frost]

Read my mind......; )

You fit the classic troll list to the letter. You dont do vt either...you
regularly post worthless tripe about guys not posting clips...
...I am not here to be popular frost, just honest open criticism.

no i dont but then according to you theres only about three guys on the entire forum that do do VT so im in good company

[Phil Redmond]

I love this post lol

I've found out over the years that adversarial people online are sometimes really nice guys in person.

[NelisVingTsun]

I've found out over the years that adversarial people online are sometimes really nice guys in person.

Did you and Kevin met?

[k gledhill]

Maybe the reason he has never been dropped by an elbow could be have something to do with the way he is training.

Elbows finish fights. We train and defend them for our wing chun and mma. The elbow is one of wing chun's best weapons when used correctly. Ie body power not shoulder power.

Ironic, but I have knocked out a guy using an elbow...at the time it seemed the right thing to do...

[k gledhill]

no i dont but then according to you theres only about three guys on the entire forum that do do VT so im in good company

So our forums heckler doesn't even do vt , perfect.

[Hardwork108]

Ironic, but I have knocked out a guy using an elbow...at the time it seemed the right thing to do...

If you know that the elbow strikes work, then why doesn't your system train it as a part of its regular Wing Chun arsenal?

Why do people keep simplifying Wing Chun, further and further? How long before we have "lineages" that only teach people to chase each other in the kwoon, with chain punches?

IMHO, despite popular belief Wing Chun is not a "simple" art. It is a d@mn complicated one, but when mastered, then its simplicity comes out. So, people who further "simplify" the art by cutting bits and pieces out, are not keeping up with the art's essence. Instead they are going against this.

Wing Chun in its original form is a very rich art and covers all ranges of fighting and provides its practitioners with the necessary arsenal (hand, elbow, feet and knee strikes, as well as Chin.na techniques) to be used in these ranges, using its PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS.

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

[Hardwork108]

So our forums heckler doesn't even do vt , perfect.

Don't kid yourself. Most people who post in the Wing Chun threads do not really practice Wing Chun!

The same is true for those who post in the other kung fu threads. Just face it, GENUINE kung fu kwoons are really hard to come by nowadays, hence the epidemic or cluelessness as regards any discussion regarding actual TCMA methodologies!

Keep an eye out for my own new and up and coming lineage of wing chun, that does not use hand,nor leg strikes. I have simplified wing chun to make it more "street effective". So, in sticking to this art's Central Line principles, we only use the only TRUE Central Line weapon on the human body - the head butt! Yes, ours is the real wing chun.

Because of its simplicity you can teach this system in a matter of weeks, hence more money making potetial, and less student drop out rates. All you would need to do is pay me - the Greatest Grand Master of All Great Grandmasters (including their own Grandmasters) my "reasonable" commission.

Would you like to join our organization?

[LoneTiger108]

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

Y'know what's even more scary??

It is for exactly the reasons you mention that Ip Man himself was criticized and shunned by some of his own peers.

He wasn't the only person around that knew decent Wing Chun and maybe it was just his personality and character that enabled him to survive in HK teaching for a living. It is down to the next generations to see if what he accomplished has done us all any harm, but fwiw I think it was needed at the time.

Today, we need to be a little more open to understand exactly what went on, and we need the people that were there to be more honest for once.

[Hardwork108]

Maybe the reason he has never been dropped by an elbow could be have something to do with the way he is training.

Elbows finish fights. We train and defend them for our wing chun and mma. The elbow is one of wing chun's best weapons when used correctly. Ie body power not shoulder power.

Agreed on all counts!

[Hardwork108]

Again, there are some elbow strikes depending on position/situation, but we prefer to go back to punching distance given it is more advantageous as you are able to flank while attacking. It's about weighing risks and benefits in the strategies you use.

In our lineage, our strategy is NOT to go back unless in emergencies (getting hit). I don't see the wisdom of penetrating someone's defences, "running him over", but when in elbow distance, back-tracking to punching distance.

Also, I could be wrong, but I doubt that there are many kung fu styles out there that do not use elbow striking methodologies in their arsenal. So, why should'nt Wing Chun, a close range (emphasizing) fighting system?

[Alan Orr]

If you know that the elbow strikes work, then why doesn't your system train it as a part of its regular Wing Chun arsenal?

Why do people keep simplifying Wing Chun, further and further? How long before we have "lineages" that only teach people to chase each other in the kwoon, with chain punches?

IMHO, despite popular belief Wing Chun is not a "simple" art. It is a d@mn complicated one, but when mastered, then its simplicity comes out. So, people who further "simplify" the art by cutting bits and pieces out, are not keeping up with the art's essence. Instead they are going against this.

Wing Chun in its original form is a very rich art and covers all ranges of fighting and provides its practitioners with the necessary arsenal (hand, elbow, feet and knee strikes, as well as Chin.na techniques) to be used in these ranges, using its PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS.

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

Best post so far! Very nice.

I know many schools of wing chun that only chain punch and front kick lol You see it all the time. When I say we have 8 basic kicks to start with and many punching methods they say thats not wing chun lol crazy.

Wing Chun not just centre line and chain punch!

[Buddha_Fist]

In our lineage, our strategy is NOT to go back unless in emergencies (getting hit). I don't see the wisdom of penetrating someone's defences, "running him over", but when in elbow distance, back-tracking to punching distance.

There are different ways to transition from delivering an elbow to punching. Depends again on position and situation, there is no magic general formula. One way is to push somebody out of balance while simultaneously going over to punching without giving up space. Another way is to step back flanking with simulaneous punch and any other support action if necessary (Lin Siu Dai Da).

Sparring will put you continuously in zillion different situations based on mutual positioning, distance, timing, etc. The plan is to constantly adapt to this everchanging scenario by being flexible yet following strategies that maximize output (attack) and minimize risk. We adapt on the way of our attack, trying to avoid reactive situations where your reaction will always be a step behind the attack you are receiving (reaction lag is a bitch...). Adaptation includes swift, flexible, and adaptive footwork in all directions. Just look at the pro's in any contact sport...

Also, I could be wrong, but I doubt that there are many kung fu styles out there that do not use elbow striking methodologies in their arsenal. So, why should'nt Wing Chun, a close range (emphasizing) fighting system?

Re-read Sean's and my previous posts.

[k gledhill]

If you know that the elbow strikes work, then why doesn't your system train it as a part of its regular Wing Chun arsenal?

Why do people keep simplifying Wing Chun, further and further? How long before we have "lineages" that only teach people to chase each other in the kwoon, with chain punches?

IMHO, despite popular belief Wing Chun is not a "simple" art. It is a d@mn complicated one, but when mastered, then its simplicity comes out. So, people who further "simplify" the art by cutting bits and pieces out, are not keeping up with the art's essence. Instead they are going against this.

Wing Chun in its original form is a very rich art and covers all ranges of fighting and provides its practitioners with the necessary arsenal (hand, elbow, feet and knee strikes, as well as Chin.na techniques) to be used in these ranges, using its PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS.

People who are trimming this art in order to achieve some imagined level effectiveness or to standardize it for easier teaching purposes are not only doing dis-service to their Wing Chun students, but also are disrespecting the style's ancestors!

As Buddahfist and Sean mentioned as well, we are opportunistic fighters, IF the opportunity is there in the moment...like I posted, if its there, we just dont go looking for it as a primary weapon.

[Hardwork108]

As Buddahfist and Sean mentioned as well, we are opportunistic fighters, IF the opportunity is there in the moment...like I posted, if its there, we just dont go looking for it as a primary weapon.

To better utilize opportunities with a given technique, the elbow strike in this case, one needs to drill that given technique, until it becomes second nature, so that you will automatically use it as the opportunity arises. I thought that was basic knowledge.

By the way, all fighters should be "opportunistic". That is, you take opportunities as they arise, as well as creating them when possible. How else are you going to fight?

I can just see another new lineage of Wing Chun being born - "The Opportunistic Lineage", subheaded "We hit when there is an opportunity and we don't, when there isn't! Come and learn our street effective 'modern no-nonsense' system". LOL!