Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

[Frost]

Lo im not a wing chun guy but I just knew as soon as I read the thread title the two people who would go off on one about it not being wing chun etc etc….funny how said people claim to come from a fighting wing chun line yet cant post any clips of them actually fighting like Alan’s guys can, also funny how one of them feels the need to rant over and over about it but then say when challenged I really don’t care…….

[Dragonzbane76]

Does it work. Can it be applied in resistance. things that matter

Things that don't matter. Where it came from. Is it a true interpretation of the style.

[wingchunIan]

Thank you for your post, but what you saying about me is not completely correct.

I do not mix wrestling, boxing or anything else in my wing chun.


My stand up striking art is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun 100%

I am not using boxing - its CSL Chinese boxing - ie wing chun striking -wing chun skills from our wing chun training.


When I tie up in 'training' then I may do some wrestling so my guys learn to defend the takedown and so on.

I'm a brown belt in BJJ so it we go to the ground I have a choice of ground and pound - using my wing chun or apply BJJ and wrestling as its just training.

Best Alan

Sorry if I misrepresented your stuff Alan, I was going on what I had previously read / seen in your magazine interviews, DVDs etc, and the fact that as you say you switch from time to time. I hadn't made the distinction between your Wing Chun and the mma blending and didn't realise that you taught them separately. Nice that your on here to put the record straight.

[k gledhill]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me...

[Phil Redmond]

Indeed, and one can take the "orthodox" view and state that IF WT doesn't look like WT then it isn't WT but we are stuck with the "how IS WT suppose to look?" right?
I would think that the moment the core WT principles are not present then it stops being WT and starts being something else.
Of course we get back to whether WT is a principles based system or a technique one.
Is a spinning hook kick WT?

If WC is a principle based "style" then many things can work. People who believe it's technique based will be looking for chi sau demo techs when fighting someone who is really fighting back. I believe WC is principle based.

[Phil Redmond]

One has to wonder about a system than can be used effectively in the ring.
I mean, if you can't use it under controlled conditions VS a person in the same weight category, what hope do you have to use VS a bigger fighter with no rules ?

C'mon man. WC is too deadly for the ring . . .

[sanjuro_ronin]

C'mon man. WC is too deadly for the ring . . .

It would seem that some are still under that dilusion.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

New Alan Orr Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Chi Sao Clip

In this clip both people are trying to hit each other. The other guy isn't just standing there letting Alan pull off stuff. With no offense to any other Sifus clips that have been posted here this one is way better.

[Phil Redmond]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me...

That clip actually looks good. But would it look as good if the other guy was really putting pressure on PB and really trying to hit him instead of simply posing for strikes? In Alan/s clip there was pressure from both sides.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing that we have seen over and over and over and that is that "textbook" WC ( any any other MA for that matter) "falls apart" under realistic pressure.
What you get i s still WC, it just isn't pretty and it certainly isn't "demo like".

[Fa Xing]

That clip actually looks good. But would it look as good if the other guy was really putting pressure on PB and really trying to hit him instead of simply posing for strikes? In Alan/s clip there was pressure from both sides.

That was actually the same thought I had while watching it. It didn't look like the guy was giving PB as much as he probably could have.

[JPinAZ]

Please try on to hang on to every single word I say. Pak and Lap I use of course, but it has many levels. In the clip I am taking about using it in sparring where it becomes the basic application of movement for striking. Of course I use Pak and Lap in Chi Sao which is training my movement and skill. This is my whole point - its not set in stone. The clip you are talking about is me doing chi sao not sparring, so of course you see Pak and Lap. You also see me leaking the strike with one hand which is control of the movement in the line of attack used by Lap and so on. The important thing is that skills should develop. Repeating an application with no ideal of the development is the problem that is often seen.

Thanks, but I know how to read. I don't need your silly guidance.

So we're clear, I was talking about the first clip on this thread where you mention you don't use pak, bong, etc (being, in your words, 'beginning' techniques) then later, step back to non-contact range to deomonstrate sparring (your words), and defend with those exact techniques. I was just commenting on your inconsistancies/conttradictions in that video. That's all.
Now, if you are saying that in the end, in WC, we don't focus on the techniques, but more-so the body mechanics and principals of WC, I'd agree.

IMO, after watching your latest string of videos, I would say I see a lot of leaning, pushing, shoving, grabbing, muscling, self up-rooting, giving up space resulting in a lot of your self centerline distortions. For me, this is not in-line with even the basic of WC centerline principles of self centerline. Maybe that's ok in your WC, and more power to you if it's working for you and your guys. And, I do give you credit for hard work and posting clips for your MMA accomplishments and training.
But from my understanding of even the basics of WC, without proper self-centerline, it's hard to argue you're 'using wing chun' since that's where WC starts..

[Alan Orr]

I know I am not alone when I say that I dont see VT 100% stand-up as I know it.
Making a clip to rationalize the fact that nobody else see's it either speaks volumes, nuff said from me.

another clip, looks like vt in action to me...

Not even sure what you are taking about or why you even feel the need to do so.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks, but I know how to read. I don't need your silly guidance.

So we're clear, I was talking about the first clip on this thread where you mention you don't use pak, bong, etc (being, in your words, 'beginning' techniques) then later, step back to non-contact range to deomonstrate sparring (your words), and defend with those exact techniques. I was just commenting on your inconsistancies/conttradictions in that video. That's all.
Now, if you are saying that in the end, in WC, we don't focus on the techniques, but more-so the body mechanics and principals of WC, I'd agree.

IMO, after watching your latest string of videos, I would say I see a lot of leaning, pushing, shoving, grabbing, muscling, self up-rooting, giving up space resulting in a lot of your self centerline distortions. For me, this is not in-line with even the basic of WC centerline principles of self centerline. Maybe that's ok in your WC, and more power to you if it's working for you and your guys. And, I do give you credit for hard work and posting clips for your MMA accomplishments and training.
But from my understanding of even the basics of WC, without proper self-centerline, it's hard to argue you're 'using wing chun' since that's where WC starts..

Its hard when you watch a video with limited understanding to see the control of weight, power, timing and so on. I am playing with my students in my class, sometimes I give them pressure for them to learn and react. You guys have such an obsession about what I do. Its so funny, if you don't like it then don't want it.

Posting what you think I am doing or what you think I am not doing when you have never even met me or had first hand experience of my system is such a joke.

I keep saying - this is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun - therefore what you are seeing is not the wing chun you do. Thats the whole point. lol

[horserider]

Am curious, as a young man I trained and fought Muay Thai as a professional albeit low level. Now I am an old sick man and may be unaware of changes or improvements in fighting techniques as the only input I have now is watching UFC at times.

My experience is that you fight as you train. You seem to heavily train and rely on an attack I have rarely ever seen used and never was taught or trained when I was fighting.

In your videos it seems that 50% give or take of your strikes are chops from over a fak or bong position. This attack has always been for me a chi sao attack having very little use when fighting another trained fighter. Do you have any videos you can show of the use of this technique in a trained fighter vs trained fighter match? Do you train your fighters to do chop after chop after chop as you demonstrate in your chi sau videos?