Alan Orr Wing Chun questions

[Alan Orr]

Sorry if I misrepresented your stuff Alan, I was going on what I had previously read / seen in your magazine interviews, DVDs etc, and the fact that as you say you switch from time to time. I hadn't made the distinction between your Wing Chun and the mma blending and didn't realise that you taught them separately. Nice that your on here to put the record straight.

No problem at all. Also happy to talk to guys that have open minds. Thanks

[Alan Orr]

Lo im not a wing chun guy but I just knew as soon as I read the thread title the two people who would go off on one about it not being wing chun etc etc….funny how said people claim to come from a fighting wing chun line yet cant post any clips of them actually fighting like Alan’s guys can, also funny how one of them feels the need to rant over and over about it but then say when challenged I really don’t care…….

Yes you have it. Why do they rant? What does it do to help wing chun or training wing chun.

[k gledhill]

Not even sure what you are taking about or why you even feel the need to do so.

Forget it, aside from ignoring every question aimed at you , from what I am seeing it doesnt matter to VT anyway, carry on doing whatever it is you're doing

[JPinAZ]

Its hard when you watch a video with limited understanding to see the control of weight, power, timing and so on. I am playing with my students in my class, sometimes I give them pressure for them to learn and react. You guys have such an obsession about what I do. Its so funny, if you don't like it then don't want it.

Posting what you think I am doing or what you think I am not doing when you have never even met me or had first hand experience of my system is such a joke.

I keep saying - this is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun - therefore what you are seeing is not the wing chun you do. Thats the whole point. lol

Haha, now you think so highly of yourself that you think everyone is obsessed with you?? Thanks for the laugh! If you don't like the comments, maybe you should stop posting up videos of yourself. (unless you secretly hope everyone idols you likeyou imply here..)

Look, a thread got started with one of your vids, and after people commented that it doesn't look at all like WC (same as has been said for years), you came here to defend that all of your stand up is WC (CSL or not - the CSL part is just your sifu's name). I'm just commenting on what I see - in all your videos, not too hard to see with so many of them. And I can't see a clear example of the first idea of WC centerline principle in most of them. For me, without that, that's where 'using WC' pretty much ends.

So you're right, it's not like the wing chun I do. Nor does it look like any other I've seen. And that's my point. Nothing more to say.

[GlennR]

That clip actually looks good. But would it look as good if the other guy was really putting pressure on PB and really trying to hit him instead of simply posing for strikes? In Alan/s clip there was pressure from both sides.

Id lean towards your assessment here Phil.

PB's clip is ok, but lets be serious. He's got a guy feeding him WC techniques at a longish boxing range.
Look around the 1.10 mark or so for eg.

The guys never going to hit PB and he just picks his attack of as he knows exctly where its going to come from... though he does do it nicely.
There is no way he could do the same to a boxer with say 5 years experience.

In regards to Alans clip, i think it a bit more realistic as i feel his range is more a WC range (IMO) and i see power and structure constantly applied.... i like it better

But having said that, as ive said before, its a range thing.
Neither right or wrong... they just have a preference for a different take on combat and it shows.

I'll go back to my boxing comparison between Ali-Frazier.... both very diffferent styles but both, without a doubt, boxing.

[Alan Orr]

Haha, now you think so highly of yourself that you think everyone is obsessed with you?? Thanks for the laugh! If you don't like the comments, maybe you should stop posting up videos of yourself. (unless you secretly hope everyone idols you likeyou imply here..)

Look, a thread got started with one of your vids, and after people commented that it doesn't look at all like WC (same as has been said for years), you came here to defend that all of your stand up is WC (CSL or not - the CSL part is just your sifu's name). I'm just commenting on what I see - in all your videos, not too hard to see with so many of them. And I can't see a clear example of the first idea of WC centerline principle in most of them. For me, without that, that's where 'using WC' pretty much ends.

So you're right, it's not like the wing chun I do. Nor does it look like any other I've seen. And that's my point. Nothing more to say.

Number one - I didn't start the thread. I only came on as you and the same old few jump on anything I do or say. Which is fine as it has no meaning and adds no value.

My wing chun is not limited to quoting maxims and as for centreline lol you can not see what you have not been taught. Your lack of depth is not my problem.

[Alan Orr]

Forget it, aside from ignoring every question aimed at you , from what I am seeing it doesnt matter to VT anyway, carry on doing whatever it is you're doing

Thank you, I will carry on lol

What is your question? I will answer it for you.

[k gledhill]

Thank you, I will carry on lol

What is your question? I will answer it for you.

Never mind....

[Grumblegeezer]

Am curious, as a young man I trained and fought Muay Thai as a professional albeit low level. Now I am an old sick man and may be unaware of changes or improvements in fighting techniques as the only input I have now is watching UFC at times.

My experience is that you fight as you train. You seem to heavily train and rely on an attack I have rarely ever seen used and never was taught or trained when I was fighting.

In your videos it seems that 50% give or take of your strikes are chops from over a fak or bong position. This attack has always been for me a chi sao attack having very little use when fighting another trained fighter. Do you have any videos you can show of the use of this technique in a trained fighter vs trained fighter match? Do you train your fighters to do chop after chop after chop as you demonstrate in your chi sau videos?

I'd like to get Alan's response to this too, although frankly I don't see the problem. Following bong sau by rolling over to a chopping fak sau is pretty standard WC fare. Often the target is the throat. If you didn't see it in Muay Thai, perhaps it was because of the rules rather than it not being effective? Also, you can change the fak to a backfist like Bruce Lee, or even make it a hammer-fist, like a number two strike in Escrima. Seems useful to me.

[Alan Orr]

Am curious, as a young man I trained and fought Muay Thai as a professional albeit low level. Now I am an old sick man and may be unaware of changes or improvements in fighting techniques as the only input I have now is watching UFC at times.

My experience is that you fight as you train. You seem to heavily train and rely on an attack I have rarely ever seen used and never was taught or trained when I was fighting.

In your videos it seems that 50% give or take of your strikes are chops from over a fak or bong position. This attack has always been for me a chi sao attack having very little use when fighting another trained fighter. Do you have any videos you can show of the use of this technique in a trained fighter vs trained fighter match? Do you train your fighters to do chop after chop after chop as you demonstrate in your chi sau videos?

Good question. This is the whole point of my my first clip



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phown...Dl7u7A6wJrJfzZ


You learn about movement and control of timing in Chi Sao - the application of a chop is good for the street, in the ring its would be a punch or elbow etc.

The main thing is understanding the training methods and understanding how they then work under different types of pressure.

Wing Chun for me is a system of self understanding. Know you base and power, position and timing. Then we just punch and kick, but with a developed awareness.


This clip is just a training clip, but it is not a demo or planned roll. Like in BJJ you roll and learn from the movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrV...Oj81qDAdVKPxea

Once you have that feedback then you learn and look to improve each time


This clip is light sparring. We are looking to use are wing chun skills, elbow control, power, base etc When Aaron goes to throw me I was able to be ready to reverse him as I had already set up my position of weight to counter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO_DDxUqb84


This is our pad work training -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn4cE...eature=related

Its our first sparring and pad training after some time out due to injuries. So you will see better stuff as we do more as well.

We will be posting clips and Q&A each week. I don't care for demos and planned clips. We will just be showing normal training and learning.

My Q&A will be questions people ask me and the answers will be my view on the subject.

[Wayfaring]

Here is a clip of a guy exchanging with another , it looks like VT , he moves like VT, he is using techniques from VT. He learned from a man considered to be a VT fighter.


CLIP

Oh, I don't know, compared to Alan's sparring videos this clip looks a little more like a slap fight before going to the disco?

[Wayfaring]

We will be posting clips and Q&A each week. I don't care for demos and planned clips. We will just be showing normal training and learning.

My Q&A will be questions people ask me and the answers will be my view on the subject.

I'm sure one could criticize every little aspect of the clips if they were so inclined. Too much leaning forward with chops, not enough centerline. Not enough clean tan, bong, fuk. All blocks and no slips on the pad work. Not staying in the pocket in sparring.

I want to point out some positives. I like that your training has progression between the standard chi sau control structures to the open engagement free sparring including entry techniques. I like that instead of just doing no strike or very light strike chi sau you are also doing boxing focus mitts training harder strikes.

I think people doing a lot of the slap boxing type drills where you never are in the position to get hit hard are doing themselves a disservice. It's amazing people see that as 'the real VT' or whatever.

I think more WCK schools should implement some training methods like you show in your clips. Even if they do them with their own 'perfect' WCK techniques. And for all you WCK guys with the perfect techniques, here's a little clip of some mitt work for inspiration - are you tougher than an 8 yr old? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQkoih0SZM

[LoneTiger108]

This is what I love about Alan, his team and their approach to training

Now I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anything anyone has said here but I have a respect for anyone who is actually striving to improve themselves and their students. This is what I believe Alan is doing and has done for many years.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea but at least Alan states it's Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and doesn't make any claims like he has it all and everyone else is wrong etc etc like others do here so often!

Bottom line. Each to their own in this wide Wing/Ving Chun/Tsun community

[k gledhill]

Oh, I don't know, compared to Alan's sparring videos this clip looks a little more like a slap fight before going to the disco?

So much for your understanding of Ving Tsun. Noted for future input from you, you dont know wtf you're talking about, thanks

[wingchunIan]

I'll go back to my boxing comparison between Ali-Frazier.... both very diffferent styles but both, without a doubt, boxing.

Nice analogy. Nobody ever bats an eyelid that Tyson, Amir Khan, Mayweather, Klitschko etc are all boxers but they all look very very different in the way they apply their techniques and the fighting philosophies that they choose to adopt.