Kulo village Pin Sun Boxing

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

Pin Sun & Yik Kam both retain core elements that contain old style boxing and cultivation. Both of these arts also have similar dynamics and concepts. The main difference is (besides platform) Yik Kam's art has retained the Qi & Meridian process and the Kulo art does not address this aspect.

Hope this helps.

Jim

***


What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?

[imperialtaichi]

What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?

Hello KFF,

Can't speak for Jim, but in the 22pt line the power method can be classified under Bai Fut Sau (Buddha Palm), Siu Lim Sau (Tau) and Fook Fu (Subdue Tiger). Of course, each Sik has its own power generating characteristics, with some overlapping.

The Yut Ji Fung An Tsui (Phoenix Eye Hammer) marks the perimeter of the forward triangle, and the Baat Gua (Hanging 8) marks the reverse triangle.

The Sup Ji Sei Mun Fu Mei Tsui (Tiger Tail Hammer) marks the directions plus it is the mother of most of the changes.

The Siks are not really "forms/stances" with strict structures; but exercises to cultivate the correct habits, method and power.

Jim, I think you are doing a 12pt? and Spencer a 40pt? (please correct me if I my memory is off) It would be nice to hear from your view.

Cheers,
John

[LoneTiger108]

Hello,

Chuk Ging is the term used by Kulo lineage. Perhaps Lee Shing's exposure to Pin Sun Wing Chun is why you guys have that term.

I do not for one moment think or believe that this term is linked only to Kulo Village, but it could explain why nobody ever uses it. While I was learning, and even my own Sifu, Kulo village was never mentioned once. My Sifu was with Lee Shing for over 35 years. It was my kung fu uncle Sifu Joe Lee who first used the term 'Kulo' (Gulao) Wing Chun and he was sidelined and criticized so much for doing so he literally shut himself off from the commercial Wing Chun world and continued to teach from his front room!! Hence the term 'closed door'! He is adament that what he specialized in was Lee Shings knowledge of Kulo Wing Chun, and I for one believe him. as do his close group of long term students, some have been with him now for over 20 years.

Lee Shing learnt from many sources and he was a pioneer of his day because of this fact. He was on a mission to simply help Ip Man promote Wing Chun, not Ip Man Wing Chun, Kulo Wing Chun or whatever. Just Wing Chun on behalf of the Wing Chun Pai at the time. This is also why every one of his students learnt something different from the other. No set curriculum, just individually tailored Wing Chun training.

[LoneTiger108]

Jim, I think you are doing a 12pt? and Spencer a 40pt? (please correct me if I my memory is off) It would be nice to hear from your view.

Cheers,
John

Hi John

FWIW Lee Shing taught a 12 set hand system only from the Fung Family. And he taught that method to (possibly) only one student I know of out of hundreds, Sifu Joe Lee. But don't get me wrong, Sifu Joe Lee had to learn all the Ip Man HK stuff first and teach that to his students first before he could even consider talking about the 12 methods. My Sigung held that knowledge with some major adoration.

My own Sifu was taught a broader curriculum simply because he was around Lee Shing for the longest time. I consider this to be a mix of Kulo/Foshan/Guandong and HK Wing Chun. This was what he taught me, and we later deciphered and minimized it all to a 40 point method which I teach today. I am the first person authorized to do this under my Sifu, along with my SiHing, and this is why it was so unfamiliar back in 1997 when we first demonstrated in Londons Chinatown.

I've said it before and I will say it again.

IMHO These methods are exactly that. A method of teaching/coaching Wing Chun using simple expressions to remember key points and ideas passed down from the ancestors rather than terminologies or names of techniques. We have references to Tigers and Dragons too, plum flower wooden man work, a massive array of legwork and alternative interactive drills with weaponry and small subsets of specific Heigung practice that is different from the YKS stuff. All these methods of teaching did not come from Ip Man. I have always been certain of that.

Man, sorry for that babbling. My first of 2012!!! But I hope it helps a little..

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


I do not know any other lineage that uses that term other than Kulo. Maybe you can show me another lineage using the term Chuk Ging? Even if Lee Shing was mainly teaching his own combo of WC arts (that were mainly rooted in YMWC) it does not mean he didn't use some of our terms while teaching.


Peace,
Jim


You wrote:

I do not for one moment think or believe that this term is linked only to Kulo Village, but it could explain why nobody ever uses it.

[Jim Roselando]

John,


Leung Jan taught Wong Wah Sam (and others) the 12 Fists who then passed it to eight relatives. Two are still alive in Kulo village. Fung Chun (92) and Fung Men (98).

Recently, in WC Illustrated mag I wrote about the arts history and the purpose of the LJ's 12 Fists design. I even translate some of the posters in LJ's home in the last issue to show who the arts main players are and when the art was modified etc.. Essentially the 12 are a compressed SLT/CK/BJ done with Side Facing methods.

Hope this helps.


Peace, JR


You Wrote:


Jim, I think you are doing a 12pt? and Spencer a 40pt? (please correct me if I my memory is off) It would be nice to hear from your view.

[LoneTiger108]

I do not know any other lineage that uses that term other than Kulo. Maybe you can show me another lineage using the term Chuk Ging? Even if Lee Shing was mainly teaching his own combo of WC arts (that were mainly rooted in YMWC) it does not mean he didn't use some of our terms while teaching.

You could be right about why he used that term, but what I'm saying is that it is just a general Wing Chun term to me (everybody else should know this surely??!)

Your BIG misconception here is that my Sigung was 'mainly rooted in YMWC'. Simply incorrect according to the Ip Family these days and my own personal understaing after being heavily involved with the family over the past years. His main objective was to promote Ip Mans curriculum, yes, but that was not how he actually learnt Wing Chun at all. Far from it IMHHHO. This is what also caused concern in the early eighties, as Ip Mans students didn't even know who Lee Shing was as he only ever learnt from Ip man on a 121 basis in a very private manner. More due to his existing ability rather than anything else, but it did cost my Sigung a small fortune lol!! As did all his other Martial Art research from what I have been told, mainly the Fung and Cho Families.

His learning prior to Ip Man was his 'main influence' as it was accumulated over many years and much traveling! Ip Man, in a sense, confirmed his learning and acknowledged his skill by allowing him to represent the (Y)Ip Man Martial Arts Athletic Association at the time (notice the absence of Wing Chun in that particular Association!!) Lee Shing was younger than me at that point lol!! Bit of a Young Master according to Ip Chun, and very well versed in what they referred to then as Gok Seurt, or National Art (the pre-cursor ro Modern Wushu)

This is why I have a massive respect for all lineages of Wing Chun who have an open heart and mind. Because my own Sigung was one of the forerunners of the modern 'multi-master' way. Ahead of his time in many ways, and still very very humble according to his all direct students.

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,

The term Chuk Ging is not general WC. I have only heard it from Kulo family and those who had some kind of connection to Kulo family.

I really don't think I have a BIG misconception hahaha.... Lee Shing did have exposure and training with some other people/lineages but 80+% of what is being done in LSWC is mostly YMWC. Many from Yip family might not consider it "strict" YMWC because of some of the modifications (forms/applications) that are obviously his own tweaks of the art based on his other training.

IMO, if anyone watches Lee Shing demo some of his WC you will know instantly what it is. For those reading this thread just take a look at this short clip showing LS doing some SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ etc.. Everything from the mechanics to form sequences are "mainly" rooted in YMWC. That is not to say there isn't other influence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs


Gotta run!

JR


You could be right about why he used that term, but what I'm saying is that it is just a general Wing Chun term to me (everybody else should know this surely??!)

Your BIG misconception here is that my Sigung was 'mainly rooted in YMWC'. Simply incorrect according to the Ip Family these days and my own personal understaing after being heavily involved with the family over the past years. His main objective was to promote Ip Mans curriculum, yes, but that was not how he actually learnt Wing Chun at all. Far from it IMHHHO. This is what also caused concern in the early eighties, as Ip Mans students didn't even know who Lee Shing was as he only ever learnt from Ip man on a 121 basis in a very private manner. More due to his existing ability rather than anything else, but it did cost my Sigung a small fortune lol!! As did all his other Martial Art research from what I have been told, mainly the Fung and Cho Families.

His learning prior to Ip Man was his 'main influence' as it was accumulated over many years and much traveling! Ip Man, in a sense, confirmed his learning and acknowledged his skill by allowing him to represent the (Y)Ip Man Martial Arts Athletic Association at the time (notice the absence of Wing Chun in that particular Association!!) Lee Shing was younger than me at that point lol!! Bit of a Young Master according to Ip Chun, and very well versed in what they referred to then as Gok Seurt, or National Art (the pre-cursor ro Modern Wushu)

This is why I have a massive respect for all lineages of Wing Chun who have an open heart and mind. Because my own Sigung was one of the forerunners of the modern 'multi-master' way. Ahead of his time in many ways, and still very very humble according to his all direct students.

[kung fu fighter]

Essentially the 12 are a compressed SLT/CK/BJ done with Side Facing methods.

Hello,

What exactly is your definition of side facing? is it when you are facing the opponent on his flank? or when you are directly in front of him, but turned so that your side is facing him?

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

The term Chuk Ging is not general WC. I have only heard it from Kulo family and those who had some kind of connection to Kulo family.

I find that very interesting indeed Jim, and will double check with my own Sifu about the term when I see him, and ask what he thinks of your opinion. There was never a distinction of sorts in his own training fme so it may be news to him too!

I really don't think I have a BIG misconception hahaha.... Lee Shing did have exposure and training with some other people/lineages but 80+% of what is being done in LSWC is mostly YMWC.

I disagree totally because what I have learnt has nothing whatsoever to do with Ip Man, it's simply not the same approach at all. By the time I started even Lee Shing himself had passed away and my Sifu taught me freely and under no 'banner' of Ip Man.

80+% of what you have seen maybe, but you haven't trained in the family have you, I'm not sure? And I use the term 'seen' very loosely here because I imagine that you are only referring to the brief clips of Sifu Goh and Sigung on Youtube?

IMO, if anyone watches Lee Shing demo some of his WC you will know instantly what it is. For those reading this thread just take a look at this short clip showing LS doing some SNT, CK, BJ, MYJ etc.. Everything from the mechanics to form sequences are "mainly" rooted in YMWC. That is not to say there isn't other influence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs

Like I said earlier, Lee Shings purpose was to promote Ip Man Wing Chun. His most successful 'public' Sifu is Austin Goh, and this will explain why you have seen what you have seen. This, in all honesty, has very little to do with how I learnt or how my own Sifu was taught. Something else to consider for everyone here forms are just forms. The method of training the whole curriculum is totally different than simply copying forms!

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer wrote:


The method of training the whole curriculum is totally different than simply copying forms!

***


If you say it isn't mainly YMWC maybe you can go ahead and show some "real" LSWC. I watched some of your Jun Mo WC on youtube but couldn't really judge it fairly as they had a large amount of Wushu mixed in them.

Even in the old clip of your "Uncle" Joe Lee doing some of his Pin Sun is still mainly YMWC application being done out of a Kulo Chi Sao platform. Not long ago you posted a clip of Academie Tao or something like that stating it was a good demo of PSWC but sadly there was none being demo'd.

I have spoken with Joe Lee and others about your art back in the day. My rep in Wales was an instructor under A. Goh (lineage) and he has trained numerous courses with different Lee Shing people. Yes. You guys have a bunch of different things as part of your WC curriculum but that doesn't mean its heaviest influence and flavor isn't YMWC.

I would ask you the same question you asked me regarding the LS's art:

What exposure do you have to the Kulo family outside of Lee Shing people and Youtube to know if what you are doing is PSWC or not?


Peace,

[LoneTiger108]

If you say it isn't mainly YMWC maybe you can go ahead and show some "real" LSWC. I watched some of your Jun Mo WC on youtube but couldn't really judge it fairly as they had a large amount of Wushu mixed in them.

Really? Is that what you see?

My rep in Wales was an instructor under A. Goh (lineage) and he has trained numerous courses with different Lee Shing people. Yes. You guys have a bunch of different things as part of your WC curriculum but that doesn't mean its heaviest influence and flavor isn't YMWC.

Point taken about the YMWC influence being heavy because that's what is publically promoted, as I have tried to explain (?)

But I think your rep in Wales has only given seminars to Austin Gohs students and he is obviously someone I look forward to meeting at some point so we can all become clearer on exactly what's what. It is kinda hard for people who have only learnt from one side of the family to generalize about what Lee Shing actually knew.

What exposure do you have to the Kulo family outside of Lee Shing people and Youtube to know if what you are doing is PSWC or not?

That's simple. I personally do not practise or was taught any PSWC (as you know it) but you are implying that Sifu Joe Lee's Wing Chun is not Kulo Wing Chun and I know he would argue that point!

Please consider that my Sigung was learning what you now call Kulo Wing Chun before 1950, and so it may not follow the current Fung Family promotions. That's not to say anyone is wrong here either, it can be explained through understanding different generations of students imho just as the current Ip Family practitioners have proven.

It's been great to chat with you too Jim and share our thoughts. I like to think that if we ever met it would be quite revolutionary!

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


Yes. Rob gave a PS seminar to one LS group but he and his old instructor would often go to a bunch of different courses up in London with LS family so they have had some exposure to different people. They played LSWC for over a decade.

Joe Lee's demo has a PS drill done with some YM applications. Is it PS. The drill would be but most of the application are not.

***

You wrote:

Please consider that my Sigung was learning what you now call Kulo Wing Chun before 1950, and so it may not follow the current Fung Family promotions. That's not to say anyone is wrong here either, it can be explained through understanding different generations of students imho just as the current Ip Family practitioners have proven.

***


The above info. doesn't make much sense to me. My grand teacher was Fung Min & Fung Chun's most outstanding student and he is listed in Leung Jan's home as their top pupil. This gave him exposure to the old style LJ taught WWS as well as Fung Chun's 12 which is what most people practice today. I was taught the old style that Fung Ju learned from Fung Min which is what Fung Sang also taught.

The evolution of the art has been well documented and we know what modifications came from which teacher. Here is a translation from one of the texts from Master Leung's home giving you an example of how the Kulo people know what and where etc:

“Leung Jan in Kulo taught: Wong Wah Sam, Yik Ying, Leung Bak Chung and others. Wong Wah Sam then taught: Fung Min and Fung Chun. These two then taught Fung Ju. During the time before this, only local Kulo people practiced Dr. Leung Jan's classical Wing Chun boxing. But after 1966, Fung Ju traveled far and wide, settling in Hong Kong, accepting all challenges and as a result, the Kulo Pai classical Wing Chun blossomed until even this day, Dr. Leung's Kulo Classical Wing Chun is famous worldwide.”


Joe Lee claims Lee Shing had two Kulo teachers. One being "Fong" Yee Min & Fung Sang. 1st. Wong Wah Sam had 8 disciples. Fung Yee Min (Fung Min) was one of them but there was no such person named FONG Yee Min. Fung Min only taught two people. Fung Ju & Fung Daat.

With regards to Lee Shing training with Fung Sang I am not sure how would this be possible during that time period. Fung Sang did not start teaching until he arrived in Hong Kong in the mid 1960's and Lee Shing left for the UK in 1962. Fung Sang was born in 1940 so unless he was teaching teaching LS when he was 10 years old I don't think it was possible???

So, unless he (Lee Shing) came back to China to do some training after he moved to the UK I do not know how he could have studied under Fung Sang. I tend to think this is the more likely for LS's PS exposure but anything is possible........

I'll be sure to let you know if I come to the UK. I'm sure we could have some fun...



Peace,

[Hendrik]

Hello,

Pin Sun & Yik Kam both retain core elements that contain old style boxing and cultivation. Both of these arts also have similar dynamics and concepts. The main difference is (besides platform) Yik Kam's art has retained the Qi & Meridian process and the Kulo art does not address this aspect.

Hope this helps.

Jim

***


What's the difference between the snake engine, and the engine in PSWC?

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsawxq9ISyw

[imperialtaichi]

Sifu Fung Chun & JJR "Chuk Ging":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_qCm...eature=related

Jim, when Sifu Fung mentioned "Chuk Ging", was he referring to Chuk as in "Storing" or Chuk as in "Rapid/Speed"?