Experience rolling with tai chi people?

[Fa Xing]

Tai Chi was developed for fighting. The original Yang family was teaching the art to both the Manchurian Noblemen and Imperial Guards. I don't think the Imperial Guards were much interested in just being healthy hippies.

In the Tai Chi system, there are strikes, throws and some grappling. When done properly, it is hard to land strikes on a Tai Chi dude.

The main strategy of Tai Chi fighting is to be like a ghost; to be "not" there when the opponent attacks. The softness is not just to disipate the incoming force, but also to not give anything away (if the opponent cannot sense you correctly, he wouldn't know how to deal with you), while completely covering the opponent's attacks, and to fool the opponent's senses.

The study of Tai Chi focuses on knowing yourself, knowing your enemy, and knowing the interactions including force, reaction, physiological responses and psychology. While the model is "Qi" based, most of the effects can be explained scientifically. There is NO magic.

If I have to describe Martial Arts as "cooking"; then Tai Chi would be the study of the science of cooking while (Kulo 22) Wing Chun is the master recipe book.

Cheers,
John

Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then?

I have decided after getting no where to move onto Jeet Kune Do, and at least bring the attributes I've gained from Taiji to that.

[Phil Redmond]

Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then? . . . .

I was in L.A. in 2006 and I found some people like that. There are people like that everywhere. But, there are some hardcore martial artists in L.A. Dale and Ernie come to mind.

[nasmedicine]

Strictly speaking, when done properly the circling is done via the change in force vectors with very little movement and minimal change in the quantity of force. Why? because I don't want the opponent to know what I am doing. If I move, you will sense the weakness and trap/strike me. If I do not move, I am not letting you know how to deal with me, and give you the false impression that you are gaining. While I undermine your balance (to be as sneaky as possible). I will then attack when you least expect it and when the balance is gone.

Cheers,
John

Precisely!

[anerlich]

Tai Chi is strictly stand up...once you hit the ground, connection is lost. I don't care if i'm sticking my neck out and saying it but that's the truth.

IOW, same as Wing Chun.

Josh Waitzkin, author of "The Art of Learning" was World Taiji push hands champion. What he did sounds more like good-quality greco-roman wrestling than anything else.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP wasn't talking about rolling ina grappling context.

[nasmedicine]

I teach a Wing Chun class in Columbus Park on Sundays from 3-5pm. Well, at least until it gets too cold. You should stop by sometime.

Would love to one of these days.

[nasmedicine]

IOW, same as Wing Chun.

Josh Waitzkin, author of "The Art of Learning" was World Taiji push hands champion. What he did sounds more like good-quality greco-roman wrestling than anything else.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP wasn't talking about rolling ina grappling context.

At the root of it all, everything is the same. Truth is truth and good body mechanics (no matter what label one would like to attach to it) is good body mechanics. Bottom line is, does it work...

[Yoshiyahu]

I have rolled with a few Tai Chi guys over the years.

I also study Tai Chi off and on.

The first part of push hands. is to get use to push and pull. Most of the time The strikes, chin na and take downs and kicks are not employed in Tui Shou right at the beginning.

You start off with basic level Push hands. Excel as you push to uproot. Inhale as you pull or turn off force to off balance. The idea is to lead the opponents force into nothing. Tai Chi basic level push hands is continous Yin and Yang. You push to defeat his structure. You lead his push into nothingness to disrupt his structure.

The key is to off balance him or move him out of his root.


Its a drill. Not actually sparring. Later on Tai chi imploys more force. Kicks, Palm Strikes and punches.

A person with only basic level push hands will not be able defend against a strike. WC fighters start sparring alot earlier than tai chi guys. Tai Chi doesn't start sparring until about ten years in! The believe in learning the basic principles first so you can be strong. Like the breathe, leading your opponent into nothingness, learning to loose, strong root, using your root to uproot your opponent, using his force to send him flying.

Basic Push hands is taking your opponents force an using his energy as a weapon against him.

From receiving his force and sending it back to him or receiving his force an guiding him continously into the same direction.

Tai Chi today is basically for health as some as said...So the martial aspects are not readily taught to all!

[imperialtaichi]

Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then?

I have decided after getting no where to move onto Jeet Kune Do, and at least bring the attributes I've gained from Taiji to that.

I share your frustration!

To be honest, I have more or less given up teaching Tai Chi to the public for the exact same reason. I don't want to teach the watered down version, but most people don't want the real deal.

Teaching Kulo is way more fun anyway

[Robinhood]

In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.

They probably grab you because they don't practice much striking, or don't want to punch you.

[YouKnowWho]

They probably grab you because they don't practice much striking, or don't want to punch you.

My opponent didn't grab me. I grabbed him.

[Robinhood]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.
My opponent didn't grab me. I grabbed him.

How do you have wrestling match without grabbing ?

[Fa Xing]

I share your frustration!

To be honest, I have more or less given up teaching Tai Chi to the public for the exact same reason. I don't want to teach the watered down version, but most people don't want the real deal.

Teaching Kulo is way more fun anyway

Actually, what I liked was my sensitivity was on par with some of the good JKD/WCK guys, and much better than the average or beginner practitioners.

[Fa Xing]

I was in L.A. in 2006 and I found some people like that. There are people like that everywhere. But, there are some hardcore martial artists in L.A. Dale and Ernie come to mind.

I've looked up a few of them myself, however, at this point in my training I'm trying to take what I know and ask myself what I would do. Then "test" that against other people who don't train the way I do. It's been very enlightening so far and taught me a lot, as well as pointed out where I'm in control and at what point I lose that control of myself.

[Yoshiyahu]

In theory. Tai Chi shouldnt be mere brute on brute strength wrestling...Although contrary to popular belief. Tai Chi Ain't 100% Soft. It is Yin and Yang. Soft and Hard like WC. The Push is hard, guiding force into nothingness is soft!


The Push hands can go into multiple vectors. (Forward, Back, up, down, Left, Right and diagonal vectors.) The main or beginning vector is forward and back. Here you learn to use your breath with the movements. Push,punch,kick or you exhale your breath to expel force. A Pull or roll back, or drawing in movemnts you inhale to absorb energy.

Depending on the school of thought Yang or Chen the structure and power utilization is alot different.


With Yang you use substantial and nonsubstantial. You use your weight,body,structure to pull and push. In theory when your opponent pushes you pull him. when he pulls you you push him. If he does nothing push and pull him continously to get him off balance. Its more to tai chi than push hands.

The forms themsevles once broken down and drilled in realistic application also assist in uprooting and taking your opponent down.

The focal point of Tai Chi is Push and Pull to lead your opponent to nothingness or to throw him to ground.

Tai Chi Movements have kicks and punches but the take down and uprooting techniques are predominant in the forms.

Most Tai Chi in Western countries do not have the Yang or hard conditioning to go with it.


Tai chi has external force as well as internal force. You can not train the internal with out the external. Also there is hard chi gung as well as soft chi gung.



Heavy Ball to turn = This builds up cycle force among other things. Trains the arms and builds power. But few people i have seen actually use the heavy ball. Start off with a ball the size of a bowling ball and work your way to heavier.

Striking the wooden Post = Hitting the Trees like Baguazhang is also apart of Tai Chi. Since Tai Chi uses more palm strikes than fist. The Tree or wooden post builds up the force needed to actually repel your opponent.

With out these two things your Tai Chi will be really weak. There are more external skills to develop like iron palm by hitting Water, iron palm bag striking and punching, kicking, and utilizes your other seven stars against heavy bag man. But the two i mentioned first in my opinion are the main things outside of chi gung you need to make your tai chi formidable.

In all actuality Tai Chi like Wing Chun seeks to bridge. the difference between Wing Chun and Tai Chi is three main things!

Tai Chi is not as linear as wing chun. Thus swinging arms generate more force than linear. But also swinging arms are slower than straight punches!

Tai Chi doesn't attack first. Wing Chun strikes first. Tai Chi waits for the opponent to strike so it can counter. Tai Chi is about Defense. Wing Chun is about Offense.

Tai Chi doesn't predominantly rely on striking. Although wing chun has uprooting techniques with in its forms like Chum Kiu and the Mook Yan Jong. Uprooting, pushing and Pulling is not the main focus of Wing Chun. Tai Chi seeks to throw you down on the ground preferably on your cranium. Wing Chun seeks to strike you on the centerline (conceptual meridian line) repeately with intense speed and short power.

Of course the critics will say there are alot of more differences to WC and Tai Chi and TC also adheres to a centerline theory. But in reality the Center line is not stressed in any Tai Chi i have studied. I have studied Yang, Hunyuan briefly and other forms of Chen. I have met with other people who practiced Tai Chi as well over the years. I seek not to argue what you think you know of Tai Chi just sharing my opionin...


in retrospect...

I spoke of the difference between Yang and Chen structure.

Yang structure is more mobile in it use of substantial and nonsubstantial to generate force. Chen is more double weighted and doesn't sink or draw back in the stance as much as Yang does. Nor does it push forward as far as Yang. Chen Stances is far less committing similiar to WC with subtle movements. Since Chen doesn't have long stances like Yang to generate force they utilize fajing to add to their power. The Fajin accompanied with a subtle movements of the stance allow for alot of power when striking. Where as Yang uses deep sinking stances to absorb energy and far reaching pushes is not accompanied with Fajin. Yang has a stronger push and pull than chen or Wing Chun. Yang has stronger base for repeling people and pulling them greater distances than chen does. Where as Chen Strikes are far more menencing with the Fajin behind it.

But a Yang Stylist who applies Fajin is twice as horrifying!

In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it's no different from wrestling? I just don't have answer for that.

[imperialtaichi]

In theory. Tai Chi shouldnt be mere brute on brute strength wrestling...Although contrary to popular belief. Tai Chi Ain't 100% Soft. It is Yin and Yang. Soft and Hard like WC. The Push is hard, guiding force into nothingness is soft!

Even the push is not hard. But the effect is hard.

A low level Tai Chi guy lines up his own body so he can push back with a very strong structure.

A top level guy lines up his opponent's structure so he can bounce out his opponent with two single points e.g. 2 fingers (of course, during practice only). In real fight, it would be two palms or Yin and Yang halves of a single palm or the first and second knuckles etc.

In real fights, a top level Tai Chi person would seem amazing strong to the opponent and the people watching. The "yielding" is invisible, virtually no perceivable structure. It can often be mistaken as brute force. It is done by removing the opponent's balance as soon as contact occurs. It does not take much force to push a refrigerator over when you have already placed it on it's edge.

This is not a Tai Chi forum so I won't elaborate on the method.

Cheers,
John