Some Essential Advice for the Wall Street Protesters:

[Hardwork108]

What Drake says and doesn't say has nothing to do with anything. The fact that you have to rely on this impoverished reasoning to justify your position is pathetic.

That article is nothing but meandering speculation based on. . .what evidence I'm still not entirely sure, all he does is say that some documents show clear evidence of something but Hopsicker never presents these documents.

There is a difference between actually having evidence and talking about having evidence.

All that foreplay and no nut.

You know, the fact these people drank alcohol, which was corroborated by Atta's girlfriend, then retracted apparently according to her, under FBI intimidation - is something that I did not read in USA Today. I saw it on news programs which were presumably basing their contents on official accounts.

Also, the fact that you think that anything that questions the official position filled with VAGUE comments such as "official sources say.."; "According to FBI sources...." and other UNCOROBORATED bla, bla, bla, shows that you are just closed minded and afraid like the rest of the sheep.

As for Drake, he has the interest of the official position in mind and he sticks to it and I would say that he is more familiar with the official 9-11 mumbo jumbo version than you are, YET AGAIN, he did not deny that these people were drinkers and strip club clients, but he was doing his best to JUSTIFY it, in the context that Islamic fanatics who kill themselves in holy wars for Allah, are not partial to getting drunk and grinding groins with lap dancers........LOL!

So, don't discount his contributions in order to win a hopeless argument. One more thing, independent reporters have found evidence of these people's hedonistic life styles. Call them tin hat wearers, if you like, but the fact is that a corrupt government that orchestrates a murderous false flag operaton against her own people is going to have the mechanisms to attemtp to cover up and smooth things out afterwards!


TIME LINE FOR THE 9-11 ATTACKS:
http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...e&startpos=100

"Before September 11, 2001: 9/11 Hijackers Drink Alcohol and Watch Strip Shows, Especially towards Eve of Attacks
Edit event

Cheetah’s nude bar in San Diego.Cheetah’s nude bar in San Diego. [Source: Cheetah's]A number of the 9/11 hijackers apparently drink alcohol heavily in bars, sleep with prostitutes, and watch strip shows in the US in the months and especially the days leading up to 9/11.
bullet In late February 2001, hijacker Ziad Jarrah frequents a strip club in Jacksonville, Florida (see February 25-March 4, 2001).
bullet In July 2001, hijackers Hamza Alghamdi and Marwan Alshehhi make two purchases of “pornographic video and sex toys” from a Florida store (see July 4-27, 2001).
bullet Some hijackers, including possibly Satam Al Suqami and Waleed and Wail Alshehri, sleep with prostitutes in the days before 9/11 (see September 7-11, 2001).
bullet On September 10, three hijacker associates spend $200 to $300 apiece on lap dances and drinks in the Pink Pony, a Daytona Beach, Florida strip club. While the hijackers had left Florida by this time, Mohamed Atta is reported to have visited the same strip club, and these men appear to have had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks (see September 10, 2001). [Boston Herald, 10/10/2001]
bullet Marwan Alshehhi and Mohamed Atta are seen entering the Hollywood, Florida, sports bar Shuckums already drunk. They proceed to drink even more hard alcohol there (see September 7, 2001).
bullet Atta and Alshehhi are seen at Sunrise 251, a bar in Palm Beach, Florida. They spend $1,000 in 45 minutes on Krug and Perrier-Jouet champagne. Atta is with a tall busty brunette in her late twenties; Alshehhi is with a shortish blonde. Both women are known locally as regular companions of high-rollers. [Daily Mail, 9/16/2001]
bullet A stripper at the Olympic Garden Topless Cabaret in Las Vegas, Nevada, later recalls Marwan Alshehhi being “cheap,” paying only $20 for a lap dance. [Cox News Service, 10/16/2001]
bullet Several hijackers reportedly patronize the Nardone’s Go-Go Bar in Elizabeth, New Jersey. They are even seen there on the weekend before 9/11. [Boston Herald, 10/10/2001; Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001]
bullet Majed Moqed visits a porn shop on three occasions and rents a porn video. The mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, later says of the six hijackers who stayed there, “Nobody ever saw them at mosques, but they liked the go-go clubs.” [Newsday, 9/23/2001; Newsweek, 10/15/2001]
bullet Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar often frequent Cheetah’s, a nude bar in San Diego. [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/2002]
bullet Marwan Alshehhi is possibly seen in the Cheetah nightclub in Pompado Beach, Florida, on July 1, 2001. Six dancers who work there later claim to have seen him. [Federal Bureau of Investigation, 10/2001, pp. 173 pdf file]
bullet Hamza Alghamdi watches a porn video on September 10. [Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001]
Temple University in Philadelphia professor Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub will later comment: “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam.… People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.” [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/16/2001]

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I saw it on news programs which were presumably basing their contents on official accounts.

Which news programs?

Also, the fact that you think that anything that questions the official position filled with VAGUE comments such as "official sources say.."; "According to FBI sources...." and other UNCOROBORATED bla, bla, bla, shows that you are just closed minded and afraid like the rest of the sheep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

YET AGAIN, he did not deny that these people were drinkers and strip club clients, but he was doing his best to JUSTIFY it, in the context that Islamic fanatics who kill themselves in holy wars for Allah, are not partial to getting drunk and grinding groins with lap dancers........LOL!

Your statement is contradictory.

One more thing, independent reporters have found evidence of these people's hedonistic life styles.

Which independent reporters?

the fact is that a corrupt government that orchestrates a murderous false flag operaton against her own people is going to have the mechanisms to attemtp to cover up and smooth things out afterwards!

Pure conjecture.

[Hardwork108]

Which news programs?

I can't recall, but are trying to tell me that you had not heard of these guys having been seen drinking in strip clubs?

Also, were you not yourself trying to convince me that drinking and strip club frequenting Islamic suicidal terrorists were a possibility? LOL!

HERE!:

Murder-Suicide does not require the absence of hedonism to be acted out.

Why not just say that these guys were never drunk and never visited strip clubs?

I will tell you why, you are just trying to "win". You don't care about right or wrong, you just want your limited reality to be real, so that you can stay within intellectual comfort zone.

Also, why not read my previous post including the quote and the link as regards the time line of the 9-11 operation provided?

Your statement is contradictory.

Perhaps it is you who is conviniently not understanding it?

Which independent reporters?

Read my previous post and see the link!!!

Pure conjecture.

It is not a conjecture for those who have not been brainwashed politically into child like naivity!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I can't recall, but are trying to tell me that you had not heard of these guys having been seen drinking in strip clubs?

I just want to know what news programs and independent reporters you're referring to.

Also, were you not yourself trying to convince me that drinking and strip club frequenting Islamic suicidal terrorists were a possibility? LOL!

That has nothing to do with me asking about your sources.

HERE!:

Murder-Suicide does not require the absence of hedonism to be acted out.

Why not just say that these guys were never drunk and never visited strip clubs?

As what you've quoted me saying demonstrates, that's not my position... but thanks for playing.

Let's set aside the stereotypical relationship of devout Muslims to sex and alcohol for a minute, since you seem hung up on it.

Martyrdom is based on the premise that dying a meaningful death trumps living a meaningful life. As such, killing infidels through murder-suicide trumps whatever infractions occured prior to the act of martyrdom in the name of Allah. The behaviour of suicide bombers prior to their death is rendered moot. They could've raped a child, smoked crack and murdered a fellow Muslim before carrying out their mission and STILL be allowed into Heaven, according to the Orthodox rules for Martyrs.

I will tell you why, you are just trying to "win". You don't care about right or wrong, you just want your limited reality to be real, so that you can stay within intellectual comfort zone.

Perhaps it is you who is conviniently not understanding it?

No, it's YOU who aren't being clear. You first state that Drake DOESN'T deny the pre-martyrdom actions of the terrorists... then, in the very next sentence, go on to state that he DOES deny them. Therefore your statement is, unsurprisingly, contradictory and unclear.

[Shǎguā]

I will tell you why, you are just trying to "win". You don't care about right or wrong, you just want your limited reality to be real, so that you can stay within intellectual comfort zone.

Although I'm puzzled as to why you're talking to yourself in the 2nd person, I appreciate you taking the time to explain why you ignored the info I posted on the Hashashin.

In the eleventh to the thirteenth centuries, a tribe living between Syria and Persia made their livelihood from political violence, and their name-the Assassins-has stood [for] political murder ever since. In fact, Assassin is a Western deviation of the Arabic Hashashin, the name given to them because they regularly imbibed hashish before doing their bloody business, and ironic reminder that drugs and terrorism have been linked for centuries.

http://criminology.fsu.edu/transcrim...gterrorism.htm

[Hardwork108]

Although I'm puzzled as to why you're talking to yourself in the 2nd person, I appreciate you taking the time to explain why you ignored the info I posted on the Hashashin.

You should enter your own link and "read" it!

[Hardwork108]

I just want to know what news programs and independent reporters you're referring to.

It was too long ago to remember the news programs. However, in the piece quoted in my previous post you can see references to sources.

As what you've quoted me saying demonstrates, that's not my position... but thanks for playing.

There is no playing! You were saying that one could have been hedonistic and an Islamic suicidal terrorist at the same time!

I suppose that is possible as well if you live in an intellectually naive cocoon. LOL!

Let's set aside the stereotypical relationship of devout Muslims to sex and alcohol for a minute, since you seem hung up on it.

Martyrdom is based on the premise that dying a meaningful death trumps living a meaningful life. As such, killing infidels through murder-suicide trumps whatever infractions occured prior to the act of martyrdom in the name of Allah. The behaviour of suicide bombers prior to their death is rendered moot. They could've raped a child, smoked crack and murdered a fellow Muslim before carrying out their mission and STILL be allowed into Heaven, according to the Orthodox rules for Martyrs.

Good! How many strip club frequenting, alcohol drinking suicidal muslims have committed attacks in the Gaza strip recently?????

Also, if we are to believe that "Al Qaeda" () committed this attrocity as part of a HOLY ISLAMIC war against the West, or the USA, then why did have so much difficulty in recruiting non-alcohol drinking and strip club frequenting Muslims? LOL!

So, THINK!!!!

No, it's YOU who aren't being clear. You first state that Drake DOESN'T deny the pre-martyrdom actions of the terrorists... then, in the very next sentence, go on to state that he DOES deny them. Therefore your statement is, unsurprisingly, contradictory and unclear.

You are the one who is being contradictory as regard to what I said. Drake has never denied that these guys were alcohol drinking, strip club frequenting, middle class Arab kids!!!!!!

This is the same Drake that DENIES almost everything that I post, as matter of habit (or is it duty?)!!!!!

Food for thought!

[wenshu]

Also, the fact that you think that anything that questions the official position filled with VAGUE comments such as "official sources say.."; "According to FBI sources...." and other UNCOROBORATED bla, bla, bla, shows that you are just closed minded and afraid like the rest of the sheep.

I haven't relied on "the official" position because I haven't made any assertions that I need to back up. I have only questioned the vague basis of yours.

You don't know what I actually think because I haven't fucking told you. Yet, because I have questioned your systemic intellectual laziness you have made reaching assumptions about what I believe. It is much easier to label anyone who questions the basis of your assertions rather than think critically. You keep accusing xiao meng of arguing for the sake of winning the argument however it is abundantly clear that this is your obsession for the reason mentioned formerly.

Here are some assumptions for you.

I don't think you have ever actually looked into the basis of these claims before. I think you have just internalized a few lines from various web documentaries and have taken to repeating this hearsay as fact. Only now that people are questioning the specific basis for your assertions have you actually bothered to look it up. As I already mentioned, anyone who dare question your simple minded excuse for reasoning is labelled with your limited repertoire of mildly insulting adjectives.

If it even mattered if the 9-11 hijackers were partying (it doesn't), the basis upon which you stake these assertions (Keller, shuckums) are nothing more than 2nd and 3rd hand eye witness accounts from sources of questionable reliability at best.

[Hardwork108]

I haven't relied on "the official" position because I haven't made any assertions that I need to back up. I have only questioned the vague basis of yours.

With all due respect. This all sounds vague to you, because you have no idea of the scope of the issue we are dealing with.

You and people like you start with the premise that the US government would never do such a thing (based on your indoctrinated belief system) and then you go on to "compensate" for all of the anomalities as regards the official version of 9-11, which has more holes in it than the story of the bible, and build your "case" erroneously around your own little political dream worlds.

You don't know what I actually think because I haven't fucking told you.

You know, if you start swearing, then you show that you are just frustrated because you do not have leg to stand on.

Yet, because I have questioned your systemic intellectual laziness you have made reaching assumptions about what I believe. It is much easier to label anyone who questions the basis of your assertions rather than think critically. You keep accusing xiao meng of arguing for the sake of winning the argument however it is abundantly clear that this is your obsession for the reason mentioned formerly.

People can win arguments or loose them, however, the plane truth of the matter is that 9-11 was a false flag operation which left a lot of clues behind. However, "blind" people were never good at recognizing clues.

Your positions are simple - "the US government would not do such a thing, so anyone saying so is a tin hat wearing conspiracy theorist and all the clues and evidence of official lies they point at are false and coincidental and any other official explanation will be better than anything that blames our government and shows us to be idiots - end of story."

I don't think you have ever actually looked into the basis of these claims before. I think you have just internalized a few lines from various web documentaries and have taken to repeating this hearsay as fact. Only now that people are questioning the specific basis for your assertions have you actually bothered to look it up. As I already mentioned, anyone who dare question your simple minded excuse for reasoning is labelled with your limited repertoire of mildly insulting adjectives.

You got this all wrong, the stuff that I talk about has been on the news - perhaps briefly - and then "forgotten", once the idea or the justificications of placing the terrorist suspects in certain locations during certain times were made to the masses.

Coincidentally. An American visitor and myself were having a conversation over the 9-11 building collapses (buildings designed to withstand aircraft crashes). After this guy went over an elaborate explanation of how the fuel from the crashes melted the main inside column of the buildings leading to their collapse, I asked him about the third building - AND HE WAS NOT AWARE OF THE COLLAPSE OF BUILDING NUMBER 7!!!!LOL!

So, he was fed and indoctrinated by some mumbo jumbo explanation of the two collapses, but never had an idea of the third building! Why? Because, the third building is hardly mentioned in the news, just like the other stuff that raise uncomfortable questions!

THINK, for god's sake!

If it even mattered if the 9-11 hijackers were partying (it doesn't),

IT DOES MATTER!

There are no SUICIDAL FANATICAL ISLAMIC MASS MURDERERS WHO DRINK ALCOHOL AND FREQUENT STRIP CLUBS!!!

There are even moderate muslims who do not use alcohol based perfumes!!!!!

You really need to start smelling the fish!!!

the basis upon which you stake these assertions (Keller, shuckums) are nothing more than 2nd and 3rd hand eye witness accounts from sources of questionable reliability at best.

Oh yes, we are not supposed to believe woman who slept with one of the CIA assets, whoops sorry, "terrorists" - LOL - and instead, we are supposed to believe those beacons of honesty, the US intelligence services?.....LOL!

Plus, what do you mean that by second or third hand eyewitness accounts? You did not expect them to interview Atta himself, did you? LOL, LOL, LOL!


I can see it now, "Reports coming from the FBI say that there was one terrorist plane crash survivor by the name of Mohammed Atta. The Federal Investigators say that it was a miracle that Atta survived, but these things happen. Atta has confessed to everything. Wait a minute, reports just in, FBI sources say that shortly after confessing his and Al Qaeda's () involvement in the attacks, Atta suffered a severe heart attack and died. His body has been chopped up into pieces, burned and then buried at sea, according to his last wishes. However, FBI "sources" () say that his passport which also "miraculously" survived the crash is being held by the FBI for further investigation." LOL!

The sad part is that there are people dumb enough who would have believed an account like the one above, purely based on the belief, "our government would never do that, because there are by the people and for the people".

There is wisdom in the saying, "the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it"!

Very sad............

[Drake]

See, the problem with western conspiracy theorists are that they think only in a limited western mindframe. In their minds, the only conspirators possible are the CIA or some financial conglomerate, and everyone else is some poor villager who is being victimized. This utter lack of an ability to comprehend things on a global scale is astounding, as though taliban,AQ, ISI, Hezbollah, Iranian intelligence agencies, and other players are completely removed from any possible formula because they are either pure as the newly driven snow, or simply unable to influence anything.

It's stupidity, plain and simple. A simplistic, childlike view of the world that can only be spoonfed to them, removing their need to conduct any sort of critical analysis on their own, and only utilizing the building blocks that they are handed to them.

If you don't think those organizations are capable of affecting things on a global scale, and aren't actively doing so right now, you are an idiot. Simple as that.

[Syn7]

Just don't XM. Just stop. You're smarter than this.

[wenshu]

It's like doing rounds on a heavy bag of rhetoric. No matter how much you wail away at it with it's own inconsistencies, contradictions and biases, it just hangs there all obstinate and pleased with itself, a stupid look on its face as it repeats the same three arguments word for word that it has been coming at you with from the beginning.

It is really a good workout, tests the limits of patience not to spontaneously combust in a paroxysm of rage.

[Hardwork108]

It's like doing rounds on a heavy bag of rhetoric. No matter how much you wail away at it with it's own inconsistencies, contradictions and biases, it just hangs there all obstinate and pleased with itself, a stupid look on its face as it repeats the same three arguments word for word that it has been coming at you with from the beginning.

It is really a good workout, tests the limits of patience not to spontaneously combust in a paroxysm of rage.

Exactly my sentiments, that is, you really took the words out of my mouth!

As far as this subject matter is concerned, some of you guys are shallow water swimmers, drowning in deep waters................

[Hardwork108]

See, the problem with western conspiracy theorists are that they think only in a limited western mindframe.

Yes, then tell us about the Eastern "conspiracy theorists"...

In their minds, the only conspirators possible are the CIA or some financial conglomerate, and everyone else is some poor villager who is being victimized.

Usually, powerful conspirators are powerful people with billions of dollars at their disposal, but none of that money is any good, without the mechanism to effect their conspiracies. Say, hello to the CIA, Mossad, MI5/6, etc. (at the highest level probably the same organization).

This utter lack of an ability to comprehend things on a global scale is astounding, as though taliban,AQ, ISI, Hezbollah, Iranian intelligence agencies,

Interesting point. Let's look at this:

The Taliban helped, supported and armed by the US, to kill Russians, and their own people.

The Al Qaeda, is the name of a computer file created to identify the fanatical murderers who were trained by the US military.

The ISI, is nothing but a branch of the CIA, and don't tell me that you did not know this!!!!

Iranian intelligence agencies, belong to as murderous regime that was brought into power by a joint Intelligence operation by the CIA and the British MI6, through the overthrow of the Shah of Iran, who by the way, had more decency in his little finger than your last 8 Presidents put together.

and other players are completely removed from any possible formula because they are either pure as the newly driven snow, or simply unable to influence anything.

Well, some of the organizations you name do influence things, but to the order of the elite in power in the West. They are the controlled opposition that create the scenarios used by your power elite to further their political/financial agendas.

Boy, don't they teach you anything in your Military Intelligence schools?

It's stupidity, plain and simple. A simplistic, childlike view of the world that can only be spoonfed to them, removing their need to conduct any sort of critical analysis on their own, and only utilizing the building blocks that they are handed to them.

Perhaps, you can elaborate your view of this "childlike" and "simplistic" understanding to the thousands of Latin American families who had their elected governments overthrown by CIA coups and then replaced with murderous dictators who went on to massacre their own people using ARMS sold to them by US and other Western countries?

Or perhaps you can tell the thousands of families who lost loved ones at the hands of the Mullahs, when the Shah of Iran was removed from power by the CIA et al.

What about the Gulf War between Iraq and Iran, where both sides were supplied by the Western countries who had hypocritically put an arms sales embargo in regards to selling arms to those very countries? More than a million people (by some accounts TWO million) died in that war!!!!!

If you don't think those organizations are capable of affecting things on a global scale, and aren't actively doing so right now, you are an idiot. Simple as that.

Oh yes, those organizations (THE PATSIES) do effect things in a global scale for sure. After all, that is why Western Intelligence organizations, created and/or support them.

I know you Intelligence types usually operate on a need to know basis, but boy, you are still lost in the woods as regards stuff, some of which is available knowledge.....LOL!

[Hardwork108]

This thread needs to clear head.

If anything, the heads in this thread are TOO clear - that is, devoid of brains....

That is what happens when a system sees the population as too stupid to be allowed to participate in the decision making process, knowing fully well that if they were ever aware of what is install for them in the near future, they would grab their leaders and the corporate puppet masters BEHIND their leaders, and would hang them from the nearest lamp post!