Xingyi and Ving Tsun...

[EternalSpring]

...seem to have many similarities imo. However, I'm no master and my opinion could simply be completely wrong lol. I was wondering if some Xingyi practitioners could point out the major differences between the two styles (obvious ones aside, ex: Ving Tsun has a form named Siu Nim Tao and Xingyi doesn't).

If i could go ahead and ask questions about the stance and movement:

I've read (note: not experienced in person) that the Xingyi basic stance, san ti shi/sher, has most of the body weight on the back leg, about 70/30. I've also heard many people say that it's very similar to boxing. I have a bit of experience boxing (in other words, i cross train it but am no pro) and I personally dont understand how that weight distribution is similar to boxing. Could anyone explain?

[YouKnowWho]

XingYi is quite different from WC. You keep moving "even if you don't know what you are going to do yet". During your moving around and force your opponent to move with you, you may detect opportunity to attack.

Most XingYi guys like to walk 5 miles in the morning daily. They would walk with arms behind the back. This way they can move their spine. They also walk with "Chuan Yi". If we remove Yi from XingYi Chuan, we will have Xing Chuan. The word "Xing" in Chinese is "walk". IMO, the whole XingYi syetem builds on top of fast footwork. The "Tui Gong - legs ability" came from both ZZ and walking.

形意拳，又称行意拳、心意拳、心意六合拳，中国传统武术，与太极拳、八卦掌齐名，同属内家拳之中。打法多直 行直进，与八卦之横走，太极之中定有显著之差别．形意拳之短打直进用于战阵中最为适合，无花俏之招法，长劲 亦是最快．两军交战，千军万马中，要能有闪转腾挪之地不易，只有直行直进，走亦打，打亦走．如 黄河之决堤。

XingYi Chuan ... mostly used straight line attacking. It's different from Bagua cross walking, Taiji center position. The XingYi is suitable for battle field ... walking is fighting, fighting is walking, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnvG0...ture=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_j...eature=related

[doug maverick]

XingYi is quite different from WC. You keep moving "even if you don't know what you are going to do yet". During your moving around and force your opponent to move with you, you may detect opportunity to attack.

Most XingYi guys like to walk 5 miles in the morning daily. They would walk with arms behind the back. This way they can move their spine. They also walk with "Chuan Yi". If we remove Yi from XingYi Chuan, we will have Xing Chuan. The word "Xing" in Chinese is "walk". IMO, the whole XingYi syetem builds on top of fast footwork. The "Tui Gong - legs ability" came from both ZZ and walking.

形意拳，又称行意拳、心意拳、心意六合拳，中国传统武术，与太极拳、八卦掌齐名，同属内家拳之中。打法多直 行直进，与八卦之横走，太极之中定有显著之差别．形意拳之短打直进用于战阵中最为适合，无花俏之招法，长劲 亦是最快．两军交战，千军万马中，要能有闪转腾挪之地不易，只有直行直进，走亦打，打亦走．如 黄河之决堤。

XingYi Chuan ... mostly used straight line attacking. It's different from Bagua cross walking, Taiji center position. The XingYi is suitable for battle field ... walking is fighting, fighting is walking, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnvG0...ture=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_j...eature=related

idk what this guy is rambling about....but yea xing yi and wc are very similar physically except that...xing yi is an offensive style...every movement in xing yi is a strike...there are almost no blocks, deflections, side steps but everything is to get in to attack, wc is more of a counter attack style in theory, many people have changed this aspect, but in its essence its a style to counter attack you kick i react and then then attack...xing yi is my first hit is to break your defense, my next hit is to attack your body, or head. there are alot of fundamental differences, while xing yi may appear linear to the novice, or the unfamiliar it is not, it still uses "tiny"circular movements to generate power. using nei gong and other exercises to build up the tiny muscles detrimental in the expulsion of power.

[EternalSpring]

idk what this guy is rambling about....but yea xing yi and wc are very similar physically except that...xing yi is an offensive style...every movement in xing yi is a strike...there are almost no blocks, deflections, side steps but everything is to get in to attack, wc is more of a counter attack style in theory, many people have changed this aspect, but in its essence its a style to counter attack you kick i react and then then attack...xing yi is my first hit is to break your defense, my next hit is to attack your body, or head. there are alot of fundamental differences, while xing yi may appear linear to the novice, or the unfamiliar it is not, it still uses "tiny"circular movements to generate power. using nei gong and other exercises to build up the tiny muscles detrimental in the expulsion of power.

nice! I understand what you mean, except I think that it actually still sounds similar to Ving Tsun in some of the aspects that you mentioned. The foot work appears and usually is linear up to the point where the practitioner learns circular footwork in huen mah in the biu jee.

But the no blocks, deflections, side steps part def sounds different. So does this mean that all the movements are attacks that either hit the target or collide with his attack? Or is it that the movements are not necessarily classified as blocks?

Sorry for all the question btw, but one more lol! I've heard many people say that the power generation in Xing Yi is very similar to boxing, is it really like a more compact version of the same type of movement?

[RonBlair]

XingYi is quite different from WC. You keep moving "even if you don't know what you are going to do yet". During your moving around and force your opponent to move with you, you may detect opportunity to attack.

Most XingYi guys like to walk 5 miles in the morning daily. They would walk with arms behind the back. This way they can move their spine. They also walk with "Chuan Yi". If we remove Yi from XingYi Chuan, we will have Xing Chuan. The word "Xing" in Chinese is "walk". IMO, the whole XingYi syetem builds on top of fast footwork. The "Tui Gong - legs ability" came from both ZZ and walking.

形意拳，又称行意拳、心意拳、心意六合拳，中国传统武术，与太极拳、八卦掌齐名，同属内家拳之中。打法多直 行直进，与八卦之横走，太极之中定有显著之差别．形意拳之短打直进用于战阵中最为适合，无花俏之招法，长劲 亦是最快．两军交战，千军万马中，要能有闪转腾挪之地不易，只有直行直进，走亦打，打亦走．如 黄河之决堤。

XingYi Chuan ... mostly used straight line attacking. It's different from Bagua cross walking, Taiji center position. The XingYi is suitable for battle field ... walking is fighting, fighting is walking, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnvG0...ture=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_j...eature=related

Walking with your arms behind your back makes your body less integrated and is a bad practice in general. The swinging of your arms integrates your spine into movement.

The two styles look similar but who cares about the look. Hsing I people will say that the power generation is better in hsing I and that it is all offensive. Ever try to pi quan a boxer with a good jab? You'd better have some deflectiOn going on or you're going to walk right into bunches of punches. You can zig zag your footwork all you want but that will cause the puncher to just follow you. And he'll be able to turn faster than you.

Hsing I's misguided mentality comes from the one punch one kill mentality. I
going to surprise you and decimate you with a series of powerful punches...but not if I'm attacking too. Maybe if I stand there like a corpse you'll be able to pull it off.

[Juan Alvarez]

Xing yi has nothing in common with WC. The body mechanics are completely different. What YKW says makes a lot of sense in the sense that XYQ's footwork allows you to use complete body power, something that WC is not even close to do.

[doug maverick]

Walking with your arms behind your back makes your body less integrated and is a bad practice in general. The swinging of your arms integrates your spine into movement.

The two styles look similar but who cares about the look. Hsing I people will say that the power generation is better in hsing I and that it is all offensive. Ever try to pi quan a boxer with a good jab? You'd better have some deflectiOn going on or you're going to walk right into bunches of punches. You can zig zag your footwork all you want but that will cause the puncher to just follow you. And he'll be able to turn faster than you.

Hsing I's misguided mentality comes from the one punch one kill mentality. I
going to surprise you and decimate you with a series of powerful punches...but not if I'm attacking too. Maybe if I stand there like a corpse you'll be able to pull it off.

thats incorrect...xing yi mentality is if you attack, i attack your attack, move around and attack you, or attack you first. dont know who you've been training with. but its not about the opponent standing there waiting to be hit. xing yi, when learned correctly, looks physically similar to western boxing in terms of combinations(or mutations as they are known) using the five fist, or animal movements in combos. proper xing yi training imploys bag and pad work, my sifu even had us sparring against different styles. xing yi doesnt have a 1 hit one kill policy...but some masters were thought to be able to do that...which is not out of the realm of belief...30lbs of pressure can crack a chest plate, less to break a rip to puncture a lung. xing yi is about using the bodies mechanics, small tiny circular movements to generate power.

[RonBlair]

thats incorrect...xing yi mentality is if you attack, i attack your attack, move around and attack you, or attack you first. dont know who you've been training with. but its not about the opponent standing there waiting to be hit. xing yi, when learned correctly, looks physically similar to western boxing in terms of combinations(or mutations as they are known) using the five fist, or animal movements in combos. proper xing yi training imploys bag and pad work, my sifu even had us sparring against different styles. xing yi doesnt have a 1 hit one kill policy...but some masters were thought to be able to do that...which is not out of the realm of belief...30lbs of pressure can crack a chest plate, less to break a rip to puncture a lung. xing yi is about using the bodies mechanics, small tiny circular movements to generate power.

And you have these "mutations" on video somewhere right? The only thing I can find on YouTube is the 5 fists and then crappy sparring looking like guys doing the 5 fists one at a time. Nothing at all like boxing. I think you're living in internal fantasy.

[doug maverick]

And you have these "mutations" on video somewhere right? The only thing I can find on YouTube is the 5 fists and then crappy sparring looking like guys doing the 5 fists one at a time. Nothing at all like boxing. I think you're living in internal fantasy.

so you never learned xing yi and just look up youtube videos? wow what a way to find the true essence of a style...dude go learn the style before trying to dismember it...better yet spar with a xing yi guy...if you dont know the system or have never even take one class on it...then you shouldnt be commenting on this thread because it just means you are talking out of your ass... ive taken both xing yi and wing chun extensively so im talking from experience.

as for the fist combos/mutations...you begin to learn their fundamentals in the linking forms of xing yi.. then in the ai shen pao...but ofcourse you have to use your brain break them down find what works for you...deconstruct the techniques...

[Mike Patterson]

And you have these "mutations" on video somewhere right? The only thing I can find on YouTube is the 5 fists and then crappy sparring looking like guys doing the 5 fists one at a time. Nothing at all like boxing. I think you're living in internal fantasy.

Well, if he doesn't, I do.

I just started putting these up on my channel before the holidays. These are from the '98 Internationals. I'll put up more from '99 and 2000 when I get time... kinda busy right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLq6FXvgtRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47UfJd3g0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMus0p-_N8

All three trained, by me, in classical Xingyi.

[YouKnowWho]

Walking with your arms behind your back makes your body less integrated and is a bad practice in general. The swinging of your arms integrates your spine into movement.

Your body should push/pull your limbs and not the other way around. The day that you can train your sword moves without using a sword, you only see your body move, you don't see your arms move, you will have good "Shenfa - body method".