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Thread: Xingyi and Ving Tsun...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalSpring View Post
    Also, I guess I could also elaborate on some of the stuff I'm curious about. A lot of people who talk about the difference between Ving Tsun and Xing Yi mention that Xing Yi generates force more like boxing. I'm also familiar with boxing (have been cross training in it since the end of summer) and I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on how Xing Yi is more similar to boxing.

    (Note: i may say some super noob things now about Xing Yi but thats because my understanding of it as of now is only from the internet. On a plus note, I'm always glad and willing to learn and be corrected and I dont/wont argue about things I dont know anything about ^^)

    The stance in Xing Yi (San ti Shi?) is said to have around 70/30 weight distribution with the 70 on the back leg. I guess one difference that's clearly noticeable in terms of the stance is that the front foot's toe is pointed straight forward. So from what I understand based on boxing, does this mean that when you step forward you put all your weight on the front leg for a split second and use that moment to twist your hips like when throwing a cross? Or are we talking smaller and more subtle shift of the hip generated through a central/center line?
    depends on the school of xing yi, wang shu jin style is more like that, in terms of putting the weight on the front for a split second, but other styles use the half step way of walking which means its all back weighted. xing yi when trained correctly, uses combinations like boxing...so boxing you learn, cross, jab, reverse, separately then you do it in combos, same way with xing yi, you can do pi,beng,pao in combo etc. you have to adjust the movements. just like in boxing. the power of xing yi, comes from the small rotation of the ankle, knee, hip waste, shoulder elbow to the fist. and in some movements, even the wrist...like in tsuan chuan..

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by doug maverick View Post
    depends on the school of xing yi, wang shu jin style is more like that, in terms of putting the weight on the front for a split second, but other styles use the half step way of walking which means its all back weighted. xing yi when trained correctly, uses combinations like boxing...so boxing you learn, cross, jab, reverse, separately then you do it in combos, same way with xing yi, you can do pi,beng,pao in combo etc. you have to adjust the movements. just like in boxing. the power of xing yi, comes from the small rotation of the ankle, knee, hip waste, shoulder elbow to the fist. and in some movements, even the wrist...like in tsuan chuan..
    This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There's plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren't any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.

    Mike Patterson,

    Those were good clips. Are any of your students fighting soon? What other venue do they fight in besides lei tai?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonBlair View Post
    This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There's plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren't any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.

    Mike Patterson,

    Those were good clips. Are any of your students fighting soon? What other venue do they fight in besides lei tai?
    well like i said xing yi has pad and bag work...but even boxing you practice combos in the air...

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RonBlair View Post
    This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There's plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren't any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.

    Mike Patterson,

    Those were good clips. Are any of your students fighting soon? What other venue do they fight in besides lei tai?
    Here's another one from Alex's 1999 semi-final match I just finished and uploaded this afternoon.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yviiLACfjK8

    I actually officially retired from full contact coaching in 2000 due to political reasons in the organization, Ron. But I have a couple guys right now trying to drag me back into it, so who knows?

    We've always competed in Kuoshu/Leitai because it is both what I grew up with and the rule structure was the most palatable in the early 90's before MMA came into its own. Otherwise, we would probably have been there.

    As an aside; we don't consider training in the air to be a waste of time for numerous reasons, but the two I think you may be able to most identify with are:
    1) It allows for training of footwork in conjunction with our body mechanics to promote good habit of body integration.
    2) It teaches us to keep better balance while in high speed motion so that when we do start hitting things, people, etc. the eventual and inevitable "misses" that occur in targeting will not leave us horribly over extended and exposed to counter attack.

    Also, as has been pointed out, boxers also do "air" work to develop fluid movement in strke combos. Most styles do.

    But hey, I would be the first to agree that many TCMA folks nowadays don't spend nearly enough time hitting things or practicing technique against resistant opponents. This is something I've been saying for over 30 years since first coming back stateside from Taiwan. The majority of kungfu folk are just simply out of touch with their roots these days.
    One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.

    MP 2007

  5. #20
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    Also, as has been pointed out, boxers also do "air" work to develop fluid movement in strke combos. Most styles do.
    shadowboxing.

    As an aside; we don't consider training in the air to be a waste of time for numerous reasons, but the two I think you may be able to most identify with are:
    I don't see it as a waste of time but I do see hitting targets more viable than open air striking. You pointed out some reasoning and I agree that it does help with footwork and "honing" the over extended points that people tend to have when full out striking and missing.
    When used in conjunction with resistance training it can be a good thing in "cleaning" up the striking and making for better balance when confronted with target striking. But as pointed out the Traditional communities tend to over work it instead of shifting the focus on actually striking a moving target and producing power.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  6. #21
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    I like shadowboxing, and working spontaneous combinations in the air, I think it builds flow.

    That being said, I prefer to hit 3x as much as I prefer to shadowbox.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    I don't see it as a waste of time but I do see hitting targets more viable than open air striking. You pointed out some reasoning and I agree that it does help with footwork and "honing" the over extended points that people tend to have when full out striking and missing.
    When used in conjunction with resistance training it can be a good thing in "cleaning" up the striking and making for better balance when confronted with target striking. But as pointed out the Traditional communities tend to over work it instead of shifting the focus on actually striking a moving target and producing power.
    Agree, DB. All things in balance.

    It also depends on where a practitioner is in their respective "evolution" as at certain points in that evolution, the priorities of training need to shift.

    Rank beginner's, for example, often lack basic coordinative abilities. So having them hit things right away tends to encourage and ingrain already existing bad habits.

    But for the more advanced practitioner, they can only really expect to "go to the next level" by hitting things as a predominant part of their training. Without that percussive feedback, you really just don't know if your technique has any merit.

    A little further on still, and now working with live opponent's is the only way to truly develop a fluid responsive capability.

    I don't discount any aspect of overall training in favor of another. And it's a pity some do exactly that. All in balance and all in their time.
    One of these days the world is going to become so politically correct that it will scare itself out of existence.

    MP 2007

  8. #23
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    It also depends on where a practitioner is in their respective "evolution" as at certain points in that evolution, the priorities of training need to shift.

    Rank beginner's, for example, often lack basic coordinative abilities. So having them hit things right away tends to encourage and ingrain already existing bad habits.

    But for the more advanced practitioner, they can only really expect to "go to the next level" by hitting things as a predominant part of their training. Without that percussive feedback, you really just don't know if your technique has any merit.

    A little further on still, and now working with live opponent's is the only way to truly develop a fluid responsive capability.

    I don't discount any aspect of overall training in favor of another. And it's a pity some do exactly that. All in balance and all in their time.
    agree, good post.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  9. #24
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    The second season of kung fu quest just started. The first episode "xing Yi" was hosted by my sihing Philip Ng(ving tsun) and aired in Hong Kong on Jan. 14. Someone has already posted it on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw


    You can see alot of Ving Tsun vs. Xing Yi sparring in the show
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  10. #25
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    Actually..

    I see a more similarities rather than differences(part of this depends on which you choose to focus on).

    If you look at the hand and arm movements of the 3 main internal arts..Xing-Yi tends to have more linear arm movements..certainly more than both Tai Chi and Ba Gua.

    Think of a tire on the axle of a car. It's spinning but it's spinning forward vertically..not horizontally(Ba Gua) and it's not like the electrons around an atom(tai chi).

    I do prefer the Xing-Yi footwork over Wing Chuns though..I will admit that.

  11. #26
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    everyone has made some good points here but I don't understand the arguing. Any of us who has trained in either or both styles obviously not only has trained it dif ways but dif lineages also. I myself have done sun style xing yi quan and leung ting wing chun. i've seen many similarities between the styles including the advancing steps and the turning. in xing yi sometimes you twist or coil the fist when you chamber it. xing yi tends to use the phoenix eye fist even in the low level training where at least with the wing chun i've done, the phoenix eye fist is only used in higher levels. the fighting stances at least to me are similar, as well as the use of rapid beng quans being similar somewhat to the chain punching in wing chun.
    Last edited by shaolin_allan; 01-22-2012 at 09:29 PM.

  12. #27
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    i dont think we are arguing...the only thing we disputed was the ignorance of ronblair...any centerline based art is gonna have similarities.. on the external side.

  13. #28
    Hey guys, sorry if I didn't respond to your post, but know that if I didn't, it's because I'm not even sure how to respond (because of my inexperience with the style of Xing Yi) and I'd rather not say anything than to say something dumb (though i will try to respond w/ something because I really appreciate your posts and while I may not talk about it on the forum, these posts give me a lot to think about)

    That said, I finally actually started cross training with someone who trains Xing Yi, and while I was excited, I noticed that he did things quite differently. Now, I guess the main flaw within my analysis in this sense is that I'm comparing an actual practitioner's word against written reading research, but the person I train with does his san ti so that the back foot is straight and the front foot is at a ~45 degree angle. Now, I can feel the benefits of the stance, but I had always read that it was done the opposite way.

    Now, I can understand that maybe I'm being told to do this as a primer, as it helps with stepping forward since the back foot is already pointing straight forward, but has anyone heard of a "san ti" with the back foot pointing straight ahead and the front foot at ~45 degrees?

    note: as far as xingyi level goes, I'm a baby and all I know is a stepping concept so far as well as the most basic info on pi quan ^^
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  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Fa Xing View Post
    I like shadowboxing, and working spontaneous combinations in the air, I think it builds flow.

    That being said, I prefer to hit 3x as much as I prefer to shadowbox.
    same. I love my forms and air drills and such, but i look at those as ways to train when I'm alone and have no one to hold mitts/pads or train with me.
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by RonBlair View Post
    This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There's plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren't any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.
    well, looks like you're banned now, which is probably for the better since this post is filled with all types of stupid
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

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