ironfist view on protein, vegetarianism

[shaolin_knight]

First of all I am a "lacto-vegetarian" according to the people that coin these terms I guess. I allow dairy products in my diet, although I don't eat or drink much dairy. I am active in Kung Fu, weight training, and my everyday life is just active itself. I don't count grams of protein, fat, carbs, etc. or calories. I have been a vegetarian for many years, it doesn't matter why. I don't have a dictionary handy, but I'm pretty sure you're not a vegetarian if you eat meat. Meat is flesh, muscle of animals such as fish, cows, pigs. You can build muscle without eating muscle. Our bodies are able to make protein out of amino acids, and muscle fibers out of protein. When you eat meat, beans, or any other food with protein, your body breaks it down to amino acids. It then uses these to make proteins it needs, for muscles and many other functions that most people don't even know about. I am not a "body builder". Body builders train to make their muscles grow, fill with sarcoplasm, a liquid made of glycogen used for energy. So they pump their muscles, drain their energy source and tear down the muscle by over stressing it. They refuel their body with carbs. Your body uses carbs for an energy source. It will make glycogen, low carb diet or not, because the type of training used by body builders uses a lot of energy and tells the body "more glyogen, please". Yes, your body also needs protein to repair the damaged muscle. So if you are a body builder, then get a lot of protein. Like Ironfist said, 1g/lb of body weight. But, as an athlete, you do not need to take up body building unless your particular sport/hobby requires great mass, like some positions in football. It can be good for wrestlers too, because they need all those stores of glycogen to wrestle for a long time and not get worn out. The way I train, it's for strength. Many of us are real confused about strength training, we confuse it with bodybuilding because that's what the media pushes on us. Read Pavel Tsatsouline's book, "Power to the People". Very short and simple, yes. But he will not try to pump you up and give you some confidence/ego booster. If you need that, fine. Train for it. That does not mean the rest of us, who could care less about body building, need to follow your rules for training. I do not require that much protein, and I do not require bulk. But I do require strength. So I must also make my muscle fibers stronger, which uses some protein, but not as much as you would think. Like I said before, I am a vegetarian. If I eat only legumes, for example, I will be missing certain amino acids that the body cannot produce itself. But if I eat a wide variety of plant based protein, I get all these amino acids. They don't have to be eaten at the same time. The same day is fine. I have taken the body building approach, and gained some mass fast. on a vegetarian diet. Say superior genetics or whatever, but that's not true. If you take in too much protein (more than your body needs), your kidneys filter it out. More water intake or not, this is stressful to your kidneys. More water intake just makes it a lot less stressful. So evaluate how much protein your body needs, not based on others needs, but on the type of training you do. Vegetarians can be very healthy, and many are great athletes. You must educate yourself on the diet first, though. Getting all the things you need minus the things you don't need is much healthier. No cholesterol, a low amount of saturated fats, no poisons (hormones, steroids, etc.). Healthy indeed. We watch what we are doing and eating. We are not stupid. If you saw me, you wouldn't know I was a vegetarian. I think almost everyone that finds out is shocked. Even people that have known me for a long time. They have to sit there and think if they can remember me eating meat or not. Some long time friends still say it's hard for them to believe I'm vegetarian. You can't tell us apart from any other healthy person, unless you watch us eat. A healthy person is a healthy person. Vegetarian life is just one way to get there.

[Brian_CA]

Nice post Shaolin-Knight.

As a Yoga instructor I here this debate all the time. Veggie or Meat-eater. The only thing that I can impart on the subject is what a very reputable doctor told me on the subject over coffee one day.

While the vegetarian diet can be a healthy one, over time without the proper supplement of protein and iron your body will begin to eat itself after a period of 10 years on the diet. The proteins contained within animal protein is very concentrated. It is very difficult to replace them with beans and other plant products. The iron contained within animal protein is also hard to replace with plant products. While you can nowadays replace them with supplements such as amino fuel, you will have a hard time getting the proper amount through purely plant products.

Excess protein, however is not filtered out by the kidneys. It is stored in the body as fat. One can only eat a certain amount of protein per serving before the body will not accept it anymore. Therefore, since the body tries not to waste anything it may be able to use it stores it as fat. Most people over eat in one sitting and never do any proper exercise to work off that fat. In addition, anything that the body cannot absorb, will carried into the small and large intestines. When people really over eat and become constipated that excess stays in the colon and begins to fester.

It is the festering mass which can cause the whole system to back up. Kind of like a sewer backing up. This generally causes the immune system to work overtime. Leaving the body venerable to disease. (i.e., flu, cancer, etc.)

This process can also happen to vegetarians. The idea is to get to proper nutrients that the body needs without over doing or UNDER doing. The whole process depends on your body.

Before starting any kind of diet consult your physician.

Hope this helps.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

"Hard exertion and extreme relaxation are the keys to the kingdom of health."
Buddha Bose

[Fu-Pow]

Do you know how many nutrition classes doctors take in medschool...count them....1? Yes that's right one, one quarter. I think a doctor would be the last person I would consult on nutrition. They may know pharmaceuticals, but they are not nutritionists. Dead doctors don't lie.
More to follow....

Fu-Pow

"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Brian_CA]

The Doctor which I spoke with is in sports medicine. She is one of the the leading nutritionist in her field and one of the top applied kineisologist in the country. I think she is fairly qualifed to give accurate answers on the subject.

Brian
San Francisco,CA

[IronFist]

quotes from shaolin_knight:

"First of all I am a "lacto-vegetarian" according to the people that coin these terms I guess."

First of all, that was one long ass paragraph :)

"I'm pretty sure you're not a vegetarian if you eat meat."

I would assume so. I don't eat beef, as in cow, but still chicken and fish and etc., so I don't consider myself a vegetarian.

"Meat is flesh, muscle of animals such as fish, cows, pigs. You can build muscle without eating muscle. Our bodies are able to make protein out of amino acids, and muscle fibers out of protein."

True, however, it is much more effecient for humans to get protein from meat than from other sources.

"When you eat meat, beans, or any other food with protein, your body breaks it down to amino acids. It then uses these to make proteins it needs, for muscles and many other functions that most people don't even know about."

Since you know so much, enlighten us as to what these "other functions" are.

"I am not a "body builder". Body builders train to make their muscles grow, fill with sarcoplasm, a liquid made of glycogen used for energy."

As soon as you said the word "sarcoplasm," I knew you had read "Power to the People."

"So they pump their muscles, drain their energy source and tear down the muscle by over stressing it. They refuel their body with carbs. Your body uses carbs for an energy source. It will make glycogen, low carb diet or not, because the type of training used by body builders uses a lot of energy and tells the body "more glyogen, please". Yes, your body also needs protein to repair the damaged muscle. So if you are a body builder, then get a lot of protein."

True. But in my opinion, I think most active people need lots of protein, especially BB's or anyone trying to build muscle.

"Like Ironfist said, 1g/lb of body weight. But, as an athlete, you do not need to take up body building unless your particular sport/hobby requires great mass, like some positions in football."

True.


"Many of us are real confused about strength training, we confuse it with bodybuilding because that's what the media pushes on us."

Good call dude. It's amazing how many people think bodybuilders are the strongest people around.

"Read Pavel Tsatsouline's book, "Power to the People". Very short and simple, yes. But he will not try to pump you up and give you some confidence/ego booster."

I have that book :) Actually, the section on "bear training" is designed to "pump you up," although it's not as detailed as the rest of the book.

"If you need that, fine. Train for it. That does not mean the rest of us, who could care less about body building, need to follow your rules for training."

I haven't known a single person who has increased to 1g/lb and not noticed improvement. I'm not saying you have to do it my way, I'm just contributing my own opinions/experiences.

"If you take in too much protein (more than your body needs), your kidneys filter it out. More water intake or not, this is stressful to your kidneys."

Yes. But as I always say initially in my posts, before people start challenging me, is that you only need crazy amounts of protein is you are trying to build muscle.

"No cholesterol, a low amount of saturated fats, no poisons (hormones, steroids, etc.). Healthy indeed."

Ok, I'm the first person to admit bodybuilders, especially when bulking, are not the healthiest eaters around. In fact, most pros in today's age are not healthy at all! However, if you are going to list "steroids" as a "poison," I think you should also include "tobacco" as a poison, because studies show it's worse for you than most steroids. Not that I endorse them, but contrary to what the government will have to believe no one has ever died from steroids.

"We watch what we are doing and eating. We are not stupid. If you saw me, you wouldn't know I was a vegetarian. I think almost everyone that finds out is shocked. Even people that have known me for a long time. They have to sit there and think if they can remember me eating meat or not. Some long time friends still say it's hard for them to believe I'm vegetarian. You can't tell us apart from any other healthy person, unless you watch us eat."

I can't tell if this whole post was aimed to insult me or not. Either way, you have some good points. While I don't choose to be a vegetarian, if it suits your needs than by all means, do it! However, most of the vegetarians I know hardly get any protein, so if I seemed to come down hard to vegetarians, it is because of that.

Iron

[Lost_Disciple]

Hey Ironman, one quick question- didn't want to start another thread. I'm having a big problem taking in 1g/pound of bodyweight of protein. I can hit maybe 180 and then I get the sh!ts. I know you didn't want to read that. I weigh between 225 and 235, with about 19.5% bodyfat, give or take 3%. I'm not slim, but I'm not really a couch potato, I work out alot, I just like to eat. I have a real hard time consuming that much protein in 5 small meals. Any advice?
I've got:
protein powder- at 30g a serving.
powerbar protein bars at 24g a piece.
canned tuna at 33g a piece.
canned salmon at 24g a piece.
boneless chicken breasts at about 30g

Normally, I stick with a powerbar, a chicken breast, and 2 protein shakes- but that's only 114g. Most of the time, if I try to add tuna or salmon, I get physically ill.

Oh yah, on a side note- I thought the body's attempt at getting rid of excess protein was the reason it ups the growth hormone production to create more muscle cells to absorb the protein; the rest being flushed out by the liver. I've never read a study that excess protein turns to fat. Not implying that you said this, but someone else did earlier.

Anywayz, thanks

[IronFist]

Quotes here from Lost_Diciple.

"Hey Ironman, one quick question- didn't want to start another thread. I'm having a big problem taking in 1g/pound of bodyweight of protein. I can hit maybe 180 and then I get the sh!ts. I know you didn't want to read that. I weigh between 225 and 235, with about 19.5% bodyfat, give or take 3%."

Well, honestly in my opinion, I would be more concerned with losing bodyfat right now rather than packing on the muscle. Unfortunately, you kind of have to pick one. Contrary to what infomercials will have you believe, it is IMPOSSIBLE to both build muscle and burn significant amounts of fat at the same time. This is why bodybuilders bulk up in the off season (gaining tons of muscle, but fat too), and then diet down for a contest (lose fat, preserve muscle).

As I have said, the 1g/lb thing is really only necessary if you are trying to build muscle. If you are dieting right now, 180g a day would be fine. Keep in mind, if you are hardcore dieting bodybuilder style (which is unhealthy), then you still need tons of protein, but for the average person's intents and purposes, 180g for you will be fine. Also keep in mind that with the stats you gave, that means about 43 pounds on you is fat.

"I'm not slim, but I'm not really a couch potato, I work out alot, I just like to eat. I have a real hard time consuming that much protein in 5 small meals. Any advice?
I've got:
protein powder- at 30g a serving.
powerbar protein bars at 24g a piece.
canned tuna at 33g a piece.
canned salmon at 24g a piece.
boneless chicken breasts at about 30g
Normally, I stick with a powerbar, a chicken breast, and 2 protein shakes- but that's only 114g. Most of the time, if I try to add tuna or salmon, I get physically ill."

First, after you finish your current stash of protein bars, don't buy anymore. Even at walmart they are expensive. I used to think protein bars were the coolest thing in the world, but i've since changed my mind. A can of tuna and salmon are almost no fat, almost no carbs, so it's a very good protein souce (especially for dieting!). It's good to get at least 30g of protein every 3 hours or so, so you can supplement with tuna or salmon or a shake inbetween meals. I'm not going to prescribe a diet for you, but I'm sure you know that the ONLY way to lose weight is to burn more calories than you consume. Eating substantial protein will help ensure that it is not muscle your body is burning. I don't know how much cardio and such you are doing, but if you want a recommendation then just reply. Other than that, I'm sure you know what "bad" foods you eat, so, stop eating them! You can give yourself one cheat day (meal)per week, but no more. Again, this is just my personal opinion, as with the stats you provided, I would mostly focus on reducing bodyfat % right now. If you do, as I stated above, you're not going to be setting any strength records right now. Just keep the training intense to maintain muscle, along with adaquate protein intake.

"Oh yah, on a side note- I thought the body's attempt at getting rid of excess protein was the reason it ups the growth hormone production to create more muscle cells to absorb the protein; the rest being flushed out by the liver."

As far as I know, excreting excess protein has nothing to do with growth hormone release.

"I've never read a study that excess protein turns to fat. Not implying that you said this, but someone else did earlier."

Your body may store it. The same way you store fat or carbs. That's what I said in another post. The body much prefers carbs and fat for energy, however, so you won't be using much protein for energy.

"Anywayz, thanks"

No problem dude, hope I helped.

Iron

[shaolin_knight]

This post wasn't against you at all. I posted it for anyone interested to take something from it. I get asked "how do you get protein" every time someone finds out I'm a vegetarian. So I sort of vented a little. I think you have cool posts, I find them interesting. Your right about tobacco, definately. My comment on the body using proteins for other functions, I meant it uses the -amino acids- from protein for other things besides making protein for muscles. One thing's for sure though, I get enough protein. I eat four to five "mini-meals" I guess you can call them, throughout the day. High in protein, high in carbs. That's what works for me. I suppose if I was a meat eater, with all that extra fat in my diet, I would probably eat less carbs so my body could put that fat to use. Whatever anyone's preferences in food are, be healthy, be strong.

[Stranger]

Shaolin Knight,

If you are consuming dairy, you are still getting all of the pesticides, steroids, etc. found in beef. Body toxins readily store in fat cells. Whether it is a human female breast or a cow utter (sp.?), it is mainly composed of fat and what it secretes is of a high fat content. Most of the maladies you think you are avoiding by giving up meat, can actually be caused by dairy as well.

I do eat dairy. I would like to quit, but it makes finding food when you are out much more difficult.

"Luminous beings are we."

[This message was edited by Stranger on 06-24-01 at 06:36 AM.]

[Lost_Disciple]

You got me, losing body fat % is exactly what I'm going after. A nutritionist I know said that 1g/lb bodyweight was what you wanted to consume for weightloss and that 1.5 was if you wanted to bulk up.

My diet directly correlates to my daily routine. If I have a consistant daily routine, my diet is easy to manage. If not, I tend to eat with my free time. I'm a student in college, so the routine has been my biggest challenge, and the key to getting in better shape.

Eventhough I got a pretty good deal on my protein bars (16 bux for 12); I'm going to follow your advice, because tuna and salmon are so much cheaper. I also need to get some Hellman's non-fat mayo to make it more edible. Unfortunately though, anything more than a couple cans of tuna a day makes me sick of the stuff real quick.

My workouts lately have been inconsistant. I mean I'm consistantly working out- but I am helping my friend get in shape for a competition. So I'll usually end up doing the weights he wants to work on that day. Afterwards, either I'm holding the bag for him, training my own techniques, or wrestling/sparring with him. We also do some distance runs (30 minutes +) throughout the week and we're moving up to wind sprints twice a week.

I plan to overhaul my workout plan after this upcoming weekend- he goes back to taiwan and I stay here. I'm thinking of starting either the 8 weeks pre-competition schedule or the beginner's workout that both appear in the Idiot's Guide to Kickboxing, cowritten by Guy Mezger. In there is a 3 day a week weight training program, as well as running and kickboxing guidelines. Overall, you end up working out 6 times a week on either program.

Thanks again.

[David]

IronFist (I'm not doing personal attacks either ;-)

AFAIK, the only efficiency advantage in obtaining protein from meat is in time spent eating because you have to eat more plants to get the same amount of protein.
My gut reaction (haha) is to call that an unhealthy shortcut rather than an increase in efficiency...

PS Hey, I've put on 5 pounds since going vegan and upping my training 6 weeks ago (and it ain't fat). And it wasn't from balancing a yank-style steak on my head ;-)

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[dumog93]

Without going into a debate over the two,i would like to see some pics/strength stats of some the vegans on the power side of things if anyone has any out there.I eat a variety of things and am in no way a vegan,but would be interested in seeing some results of them if possible.All the power athletes i know eat as much as two normal(mostly sedentary) individuals.I'm just wondering what a normal strength/size range is for those of you that avoid meat and dairy out there.

-Devildog

[wujidude]

Hey Brian in San Francisco--

What did the good doctor tell you about the pros and cons of caffeine? Any information will be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[David]

Dumog93, I ain't particularly photogenic but I'll be closely monitoring myself in terms of health, weight and power development over the coming months.

I'll be on this board and will report my findings as and when. I do not intend to stay vegan if I get weak or sick but my confidence is high.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[harry_the_monk]

I am definately not photogenic either, but I have put on loads of muscle since cutting out meat/fish,(Training has increased as well as the amount of food I have eaten also.) I know I said I had gone vegan a while ago, but I am just too paranoid to give up the dairy products, I have however just cut down to about 1.5 kilos of yoghurt a week and a couple of pints of skimmed milk.

If I can find someone with a camera, I would take a photo, but then I tried posting a photo before, and it still hasn't come out yet...All I know is that I'm getting people commenting on my body now.