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Thread: TMA in modern times

  1. #1
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    TMA in modern times

    I know this has been done to death in other threads and it has just been touched on in the multiple styles thread. Plus I was just now watching "Best Defense" Concealed Carry Gone Wrong.

    Close Quarter empty-hand skills are a part self defense even with a sidearm on hand. So are MA skills out of date in a gun culture like the US?

    Obviously not, but does MMA type training fit the bill?

    I really don't think so. For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
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    I don't think it fits the bill in some of that area, but a lot of it translates over. The grappling conforms very nicely to some of it, (unless fighting multi. people, always have to throw that in there for the idiots that preach about grappling not working) But time and place dictate those issues. But if its a one on one confrontation and you are able to get into range for takedown or clinch then a lot of the training that teaches positioning comes into light and shines.

    anytime guns are involved is a very tricky line. Someone pulls a gun on you from a distance of say 10ft. you are pretty much screwed and at the whim of attacker no matter what styles you conform to.
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    The gun at a distance is what usually comes to mind to most folks. I'm looking from the gun owner pov, not someone assaulting with a gun.

    What I mean is close quarters work. The program demonstrated attack situations that required hand skills to set up a safe gun draw. It highlighted bad practices that could cause attacker to get your gun. Keep in mind at some point you need to go one-handed so the other hand can safely draw the gun.

    I've seen moves in different KF styles that seemed to fit the situation so I wanted to hear opinion from others.
    Last edited by Yao Sing; 01-04-2012 at 07:11 PM.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  4. #4
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    Unfortunately just a short piece of the clip here. It's just that a lot of people think TMA is obsolete because of guns but here is a good example where just having a gun isn't enough.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

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    If you want complete tactical training you will not find it in one place. Not even in teh military.

    You have to go through all sorts of different specializations even there and many have naught to do with the next or the last.

    Nowadays, if you would like to have advanced rbsd training and tactical training you are going to have to step away from sport and performance.

    the mentality required is massive and that's where you will get it or not.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    I know this has been done to death in other threads and it has just been touched on in the multiple styles thread. Plus I was just now watching "Best Defense" Concealed Carry Gone Wrong.

    Close Quarter empty-hand skills are a part self defense even with a sidearm on hand. So are MA skills out of date in a gun culture like the US?

    Obviously not, but does MMA type training fit the bill?

    I really don't think so. For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?
    I have worked with police here and there are several factors in being able to use your gun.

    #1 Your drawing speed and skill. How fast can you draw it out of where you have it holstered.

    #2 The distance away your opponent is. I forgot the actuall distance, but if someone is closer than 10' he can charge you faster than you can draw out your weapon.

    #3 Grappling skills. Chinese grappling called Chin Na / Kum Na / 擒 拿 is the best defense for hand to hand with any weapon (gun, knife etc etc). To control your opponent so he can not access your gun and to be able draw it.

    ginosifu

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    I think there's the '21-foot rule', or something to that effect, where if, for example, a determined knife-wielding attacker is within 21 feet, he can close the distance and stab you before you can draw your gun (if it isn't out and ready). I believe even if it's already in shooting position, they're taught to move off the line of attack as they fire.

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    Frank Cucci had some really nice techniques combining his JKD with being armed.
    From what I was taught, the weaver stance with one foot back, allows one to have his weapon back with the lead hand to guard as he brings his weapon into position, as opposed to the isocolese (sp?) which has both hands out in front.
    Better for weapon retention as well as quick target aquisition.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
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    Combat has been upgraded many times since men first started fighting amongst themselves. The club, the blade, then the gun. The firearm is difficult to defend against if the person holding it is savvy. Most people will not be. You see people holding a gun at arms length. That is dangerous. If you want to keep hold of it and be able to use it in a close in situation, you keep it close to the body where you can protect it. If someone grabs your arm it renders the gun usless. In the military they teach several methods of defending against a firearm that is most likely to be confronted, and several ways to defend that weapon from being taken from you. Not a whole system, just a few techniques that prove to work. The fact is, you are in grave danger if someone draws a gun on you. However, rather than being shot, you might possibly be able to defend yourself against it if you have the skills and techniques to do so. If you get shot, you are about to get shot anyway. If you manage to disarm the guy you have successfully defended your life. So go ahead and learn how to react to a gun attack and hope it never goes from push to shove.
    Jackie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I think there's the '21-foot rule', or something to that effect, where if, for example, a determined knife-wielding attacker is within 21 feet, he can close the distance and stab you before you can draw your gun (if it isn't out and ready). I believe even if it's already in shooting position, they're taught to move off the line of attack as they fire.
    Correct, though I am not sure about the exact distance.
    The Dog Brothers in their excellent video series "Die Less Often", show graphic video evidence of such.
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    kung fu can provide you with a good foundation to start from. a lot of people think kung fu should look like ti does in the movies or how they do their forms and drills. and it doesn't. once people get that out of their heads they will be better off.

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    The OP was about adapting empty-hands training to help you draw and effectively use your own gun at close quarters, not how to defend against an armed opponent! Reading comprehension issues, guys?

    Anyway, where I live, anybody, at least any adult non-felon, can carry openly or concealed. So many people do walk around armed. At my Escrima class, the instructor and a couple of students carry everywhere. They even train with their knives and guns under their sweats. Kinda over the top, if you ask me, but I like the class, so what the heck.

    Now back to the OP. If you are carrying a firearm, the most important thing is to train techniques that will let you get a bit of distance so you have a chance to deploy safely. Otherwise, I'd say learn knife techniques. My instructor can get his knife out and use it lethally from any range including clinching and grappling. At close range a knife is just as good as a gun. Some say better.
    Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 01-11-2012 at 10:10 AM.
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  13. #13
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    It was a spur of the moment thread based off a show I just watched discussing the issue. I have a concealed carry permit and I realized I hadn't addressed the CQB aspect of drawing. Maybe I felt me Kung Fu/Karate training would carry me until I could draw safely but I hadn't actually practiced it.

    Seemed like a good topic since by now there are probably a lot of MAists that carry. 20 years ago I was training at a small Kung Fu school in El Paso, TX and one of the guys was CIA and had to have his gun at least in the room within easy reach at all times. I'm surprised he didn't keep it on him while training but he was new to the job.
    Last edited by Yao Sing; 01-11-2012 at 10:41 AM.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    The OP was about adapting empty-hands training to help you draw and effectively use your own gun at close quarters, not how to defend against an armed opponent! Reading comprehension issues, guys?

    Anyway, where I live, anybody, at least any adult non-felon, can carry openly or concealed. So many people do walk around armed. At my Escrima class, the instructor and a couple of students carry everywhere. They even train with their knives and guns under their sweats. Kinda over the top, if you ask me, but I like the class, so what the heck.

    Now back to the OP. If you are carrying a firearm, the most important thing is to train techniques that will let you get a bit of distance so you have a chance to deploy safely. Otherwise, I'd say learn knife techniques. My instructor can get his knife out and use it lethally from any range including clinching and grappling. At close range a knife is just as good as a gun. Some say better.
    +1 regarding knives.

    There are some LEOs who carry/train with a knife carried on their non-dominant side to aid in close-quarter weapon retention in case the felon goes for their gun. Many carry the common clip-carry one-hand folders, but there are medium-to-small-sized fixed-blade knives made esp. for that purpose.

  15. #15
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    imo its all about fixed blades if you're being realistic. why bother with having to worry opening a folder when you can draw and be ready. you draw a folder just as you would a fixed blade, yet have an additional step to have it live.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

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