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Thread: Tan Sao against jab

  1. #16
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    I agree with just about everything EternalSpring said above. There are a lot of different ways to jab, and WC has many ways to deal with them. Sparring will help you figure this out for sure! My previous post was just in regards to using only taan sau against a jab. There are many more 'tools' that can be used

    IMO, one of the best deffences against most punches is to start with a jong sau, as ES mention. If the jong works (with or without footwork as needed), then you don't need anything else. If it needs to 'change' to something else, at least you have your major gate & reference point/leverage established to work from.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 01-05-2012 at 11:15 AM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau... but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?

    The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc.... or it can really be a Jab!

    So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about
    You have a valid point. But you can train to determine the line of attack of the jab.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    My opinion..............

    Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

    In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.

    There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.

    I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it's stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau's around trying to block hooks.

    Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau's are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.

    Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!

    I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!


    Back to lurk mode! mwah

    GH
    A hook is too tight to block anyway. Especially with a Tan.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
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  4. #19
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    Pak Sau and Wu Sau are best for fast Jabs!
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nunchuckguy View Post
    I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.

    Me and my friend practice together yesterday.

    My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.

    The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.

    I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.

    Any ideas?

    Nunchuck Guy
    I really like Steve Lee Swift's Wing Chun Fighter III for this scenario.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau... but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?

    The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc.... or it can really be a Jab!

    So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about
    Wow, that's really inspiring. So I need to think about what would be happening next...

    ok, so that's way I found outside blocks to work better because I'll be out of his centerline after an outside Pak or Taan, while I found inside blocks to be harder to apply because I always got hit by the followups.

    So if I want to go inside gate moves, I must either thrust horse and attack or be prepared for the other hand.

    Other problems I faced are double jabs and combos like jab-hook (same hand).
    Any advice on those situations?

    Nunchuck Guy

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    Use your feet.
    The jab is a range finder, if you stay on the end of it you will get hit with the following shots. If he steps in and out of range you can use kicks to the lead leg to break the rythmn, but whether you intercept with kicks or arms you should be looking to close the gap stepping in on angles. As a previous poster pointed out, in reality you don't know its going to be a jab so your response has to be multifunctional. I find angling and driving forward have the highest % success rate for me, but you need to really work the footwork and be able to change direction rapidly (especially when you train with people who do MMA and use the jab to set up the shoot / change in level). Only my 10 cents
    Thanks for that, man.

    I also find footwork to be crucial in dealing with those situations. One strategy me and my friend was trying is to use the Mun Sao as a measurement to keep yourself just outside of the jab range and as soon as the series of punches end, trust horse forward with a Kwun Sao to control opponent's hands (as taught by sifu Duncan Leung).

    My problem is that I can't thrust forward quickly enough. I think that's because I put my body weight on heels instead of toes.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    My opinion..............

    Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.

    GH

    Can you share how you defend a hook?

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Sorry buddy the thread is not about blocking Hooks but its about defending against the jab!!!!
    Actually it is about defending a jab with Tan Sau which is absolutely absurd. As absurd as trying to block any punch with a Tan Sau!

    GH

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nunchuckguy View Post
    Can you share how you defend a hook?
    How can I know until you try and hit me with one!?

    GH

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nunchuckguy View Post
    Thanks for that, man.

    I also find footwork to be crucial in dealing with those situations. One strategy me and my friend was trying is to use the Mun Sao as a measurement to keep yourself just outside of the jab range and as soon as the series of punches end, trust horse forward with a Kwun Sao to control opponent's hands (as taught by sifu Duncan Leung).

    My problem is that I can't thrust forward quickly enough. I think that's because I put my body weight on heels instead of toes.
    Some comments if they're helpful would be, 1) don't wait for the puches to stop before moving, get in as soon as you detect the punch being thrown (angle and have your hands up obviously or you'll walk onto the end of the jab / hook / whatever). 2) weighting your heels doesn't necessarily slow you down if you practice your footwork in an explosive fashion 3) don't look for classical perfection in your footwork, when you train you overtrain extreme positions, when you apply you can relax them. 4) in any situation if the solution you have doesn't work there are always two possibilities, firstly it may be the wrong solution to the problem or secondly it may be the optimal solution but your execution is lacking. Sometimes it isn't another solution thats needed its just more training to improve what you are already doing.

    As we've never met I have no way to guage your experience etc so sorry if this seems a bit like teaching granny to suck eggs.
    A clever man learns from his mistakes but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.


    Wing Chun kung fu in Redditch
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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    A hook is too tight to block anyway. Especially with a Tan.
    Would be genuinely interested to hear your view on how to defend hooks Phil.
    A clever man learns from his mistakes but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.


    Wing Chun kung fu in Redditch
    Worcestershire Wing Chun Kuen on facebook

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    Some comments if they're helpful would be, 1) don't wait for the puches to stop before moving, get in as soon as you detect the punch being thrown (angle and have your hands up obviously or you'll walk onto the end of the jab / hook / whatever). 2) weighting your heels doesn't necessarily slow you down if you practice your footwork in an explosive fashion 3) don't look for classical perfection in your footwork, when you train you overtrain extreme positions, when you apply you can relax them. 4) in any situation if the solution you have doesn't work there are always two possibilities, firstly it may be the wrong solution to the problem or secondly it may be the optimal solution but your execution is lacking. Sometimes it isn't another solution thats needed its just more training to improve what you are already doing.

    As we've never met I have no way to guage your experience etc so sorry if this seems a bit like teaching granny to suck eggs.
    A well thought out and logical answer!

    If more people on this forum had the same ideas then the world would be a better place IMO.

    GH

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nunchuckguy View Post
    Other problems I faced are double jabs and combos like jab-hook (same hand).
    Any advice on those situations?
    My opinion only... force the opponent to deal with you, instead you dealing with him.

    (in the words of Sifu Wan Kam Leung of Practical Wing Chun HK)
    Low level Martial Arts: just strike, or just defend.
    Medium level MA: defend then strike 先消後打
    High level MA: simultaneous defend and strike 連消帶打
    Top level MA: attack then defend 先打後消

    As soon as the opponent twitches, don't wait for the jab to surface, attack him (while covering his fist, elbows etc, of course). Then you don't need to deal with his jab/hook/combo to begin with.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    Would be genuinely interested to hear your view on how to defend hooks Phil.
    Treat a tight hook like an elbow. I'm replying from me cell at the present and it'll take too long for me to give a proper reply. Maybe I'll make a short clip. Btw, please excuse typos if any. Auto correct is in control. Lol
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

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