Tan Sao against jab

[Graham H]

you keep saying so but what / who do you mean? PM me if you don't want to say on the forum.

As for why the actions are done slowly there are many reasons, amongst them to develop muscle memory for shapes, paths of travel and stopping points as well as learning to relax.

Its not a secret. You are in the Ip Chun lineage right? I was as well and I left.

Muscle memory for what shapes in order to do what? Paths of travel for what? Stopping points for what? You would thrown your Tan Sau shape with the elbow in the center would you. In fighting you would be pushing the elbow in to the center like in SLT would you? Why would you want to know where to stop if you are trying to punch a guys head in or do you Tan Sau until the arm is flat?

Can you explain further??

G

[Graham H]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLWzRD4CKTY

Here is an example of exactly what you are saying G, and Sifu Dyde is Sam Kwoks number one promoter in the UK at the moment representing Ip Ching and what they like to call 'Ip Man Wing Chun'. He moves well and is known as a decent fighter.

I find nothing wrong in using Tan Da as Steve does in the clip (around 13secs onwards) as he is doing so with courage and committment against a guy who is also 'trying' but I do understand what you are saying because if you have no structure then the Tan and punch idea can simply be blown out of the water against a decent boxer.

With regards to Tan being a block or punch?? Er.... I can't be bothered!

You think that is with courage and commitment do you? Its pre rehearsed rubbish drilling. Look at what happens when one tan/da has been thrown their other side is wide open. That clip is not good for fighting and leads people up the garden path! Of course you can do Tan/da if you know whats coming. Show me a clip of it being used effectively where no co-operation is involved.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

You think that is with courage and commitment do you? Its pre rehearsed rubbish drilling.

I knew I shouldn't have bothered 'trying' to start a decent conversation!!

This 'pre-rehearsed rubbish drilling' has it's place, especially for beginners, and you should try to remember that. Not everybody can begin their learning at your present level!! It may not be the best method against a trained bloody animal, but it will work against the average man who takes a swing. My opinion of course.

FWIW Tan Da is a key method in my 108, and it is there you will see how to 'use it' properly or 'make it work' imho. If you know what you're doing you may never have to use anything else Ip Man knew this!

[wingchunIan]

Its not a secret. You are in the Ip Chun lineage right? I was as well and I left.

yes but in the same way as the WSL lineage has many variants so does every lineage.

Muscle memory for what shapes in order to do what?

to make sure that they are correct every time or as close as possible when under pressure. What shapes? all of them.

Paths of travel for what?

knowing the start point and end point for a technique doesn't mean you have the correct path. I've seen plenty of people doing tan sau like wax on wax off and looking like a swimmer when doing bong sau.

Stopping points for what?

fixed elbow distance for one to avoid over shooting or having to make micro adjustments.

You would thrown your Tan Sau shape with the elbow in the center would you. In fighting you would be pushing the elbow in to the center like in SLT would you?

The opening section of SNT is amongst other things there to introduce and train centreline. Bringing the elbow in trains the ability to do so and yes if required in a fight I have no issue with forwarding my elbow along the centre line, always? -no, if needed to attack or defend -yes

Why would you want to know where to stop if you are trying to punch a guys head in or do you Tan Sau until the arm is flat?

When punching we don't stop but tan sau has a defined stopping point because the angle, shape and distance from the body are what make it work as a defensive structure.



G[/QUOTE]

[Graham H]

I knew I shouldn't have bothered 'trying' to start a decent conversation!!

This 'pre-rehearsed rubbish drilling' has it's place, especially for beginners, and you should try to remember that. Not everybody can begin their learning at your present level!! It may not be the best method against a trained bloody animal, but it will work against the average man who takes a swing. My opinion of course.

FWIW Tan Da is a key method in my 108, and it is there you will see how to 'use it' properly or 'make it work' imho. If you know what you're doing you may never have to use anything else Ip Man knew this!

They are not beginners though are Spencer?

You don't know what Ip Man knew!

G

[Graham H]

yes but in the same way as the WSL lineage has many variants so does every lineage.

Like I said before, WSL had many visitors and not many proper students. The people that went to HK and trained with him a few times will not have had sufficient training but went onto open there own schools.

to make sure that they are correct every time or as close as possible when under pressure. What shapes? all of them.

So you mean like when you throw a tan sau its in the right place??? Impossible. People throw punches and kicks from many angles and levels so to warrant throwing a shape at a specific height etc is nonsense!

knowing the start point and end point for a technique doesn't mean you have the correct path. I've seen plenty of people doing tan sau like wax on wax off and looking like a swimmer when doing bong sau.

You're losing me. SLT is very one dimensional. The actions are for position and reference not application in SLT. Once CK is added there are crossing lines btween man sau and wu sau. This is not the case in SLT up until the last three actions and then the punches.

fixed elbow distance for one to avoid over shooting or having to make micro adjustments.

In fighting we are always making micro adjustments. Knowing the limits in which we can move so that the theory doesn't break down is important.

The opening section of SNT is amongst other things there to introduce and train centreline.

How can you train a line??? Understanding the centerline is everywhere. The opening movements mean more than that. Fundamentally to do with the elbow and x'ing lines.

Bringing the elbow in trains the ability to do so and yes if required in a fight I have no issue with forwarding my elbow along the centre line, always?

For what reason? SLT is an exercise. No fighting. Why would you want to forward your elbow up the center like in SLT in a real fight???

When punching we don't stop but tan sau has a defined stopping point because the angle, shape and distance from the body are what make it work as a defensive structure.

That's absolute BS and you're starting to sound like Clive "number one son" potter. WSL's best student

G

[SAAMAG]

I think you have totally misunderstood my point me old china, because you say my thinking is flawed and then compliment my POV in the same sentence.

Nowhere in my response did I contradict myself or compliment your thinking. Not quite sure what you read there. Perhaps you can point out where that is?

Let me make it simple for you people with a lower IQ......some people protest that Tan Sau is a palm up block used for blocking hooks. Some other people say it's for driving into your opponent and is only used in poon sau. Some other people say that Tan Sau is a punchinc concept (like me)..........I could go on and give conflicting ideas on the other arm actions but there is no point.

So lets take two ideas. One is a block, one is a punch. So are you saying that which one we use depends on size, strength and weaknesses??? My idea of Tan Sau has nothing to do with blocking. If you are trying to convince me that both are "interpretations" and that is acceptable then go to the back of the room and stand with your hands on your head facing the wall!!
GH

Or, let's act like an adult and talk like men and leave the insecurity complexes at home. I know what you're saying. It is the oldest and lamest argument in the WC world. Your way is right, everyone else's that differs from yours is wrong. It's this style-centristic thinking that inhibits growth. At least that's the way it's coming across.

What if someone can successfully use Tan Sao to block a punch in real time? Is it still wrong? What if someone uses Tan Sao successfully in clinching? Is it still wrong? What if some use Tan Sao only in the form but interpret it as a punch? If it works and makes sense for them, is it wrong because you don't agree?

Now to elaborate on the skills and attributes dictating moves, let's say the OP normally used tan sao successfully against incoming punches, but now finds that this particular opponent is too fast, and he can't catch it, then he needs to work it differently or use another tactic to deal with it like wu or pak or cover. People who fight find out quickly what fits where to make it effective.

You also have to remember that a single tool can have more than one use.

[Graham H]

Nowhere in my response did I contradict myself or compliment your thinking. Not quite sure what you read there. Perhaps you can point out where that is?



Or, let's act like an adult and talk like men and leave the insecurity complexes at home. I know what you're saying. It is the oldest and lamest argument in the WC world. Your way is right, everyone else's that differs from yours is wrong. It's this style-centristic thinking that inhibits growth. At least that's the way it's coming across.

What if someone can successfully use Tan Sao to block a punch in real time? Is it still wrong? What if someone uses Tan Sao successfully in clinching? Is it still wrong? What if some use Tan Sao only in the form but interpret it as a punch? If it works and makes sense for them, is it wrong because you don't agree?

Now to elaborate on the skills and attributes dictating moves, let's say the OP normally used tan sao successfully against incoming punches, but now finds that this particular opponent is too fast, and he can't catch it, then he needs to work it differently or use another tactic to deal with it like wu or pak or cover. People who fight find out quickly what fits where to make it effective.

You also have to remember that a single tool can have more than one use.

Adults??? On this forum? Isn't this where we get to act like children and argue about who has the best firetruck???

I'm not answering you so there! Pft!!

You do your Wing Chun how you like and I'll do my Kung Fu like I like! I'm reluctant to even call what I practice Wing Chun because it can be misleading to those who are looking from the outside in. It is clear that the term "Wing Chun" can mean many many different things

GH

[Grumblegeezer]

Adults??? On this forum? Isn't this where we get to act like children and argue about who has the best firetruck???

I'm not answering you so there! Pft!!

You do your Wing Chun how you like and I'll do my Kung Fu like I like! I'm reluctant to even call what I practice Wing Chun because it can be misleading to those who are looking from the outside in. It is clear that the term "Wing Chun" can mean many many different things
GH

IMHO this is the best post I've read lately. Kinda says it like it is.

[SAAMAG]

Adults??? On this forum? Isn't this where we get to act like children and argue about who has the best firetruck???

I'm not answering you so there! Pft!!

You do your Wing Chun how you like and I'll do my Kung Fu like I like! I'm reluctant to even call what I practice Wing Chun because it can be misleading to those who are looking from the outside in. It is clear that the term "Wing Chun" can mean many many different things

GH

Indeed Graham. Indeed. WC has many faces; and I can identify with what you're saying about your wing chun not fitting the "mold", as mine had flexed and remolded itself over the many years.

[LoneTiger108]

You don't know what Ip Man knew!

You're right there my friend. Nobody actually knows. But the evidence of what he did know is with all of us imho and so much is in that crazy 108

Including Tan Da!

[Graham H]

You're right there my friend. Nobody actually knows. But the evidence of what he did know is with all of us imho and so much is in that crazy 108

Including Tan Da!

I disagree! In most cases a very crude, misunderstood, erronus version of Ving Tsun is present in a vast majority of kwoons on the planet.

Some people can fight regardless of what style they practice and this is why so many flawed systems of VT flourish...................in my opinion! In some cases bad VT will actually make people worse fighters.....they just don't know it. For those VT practioners that have never fought, when and if they do, they will more than likely revert back to type.....its human nature.'

You only have to look at these guys that are permanently glued to each others arms in ridiculous chi sau competitions and over analytical esoteric nonsense to prove my point. These guys can't fight.

All those sifu that charge absurd amounts of money for lessons, don't ever spar their students, walk around with an air of arrogance but with bellys full of cakes and coca cola
and talk silly ideas about WC being created by a woman so that small people can defeat big people can take a long walk off a short plank.

Just saying. That is all!
G

[GlennR]

You think that is with courage and commitment do you? Its pre rehearsed rubbish drilling. Look at what happens when one tan/da has been thrown their other side is wide open. That clip is not good for fighting and leads people up the garden path! Of course you can do Tan/da if you know whats coming. Show me a clip of it being used effectively where no co-operation is involved.

GH

Well they are harder than any of the punches thrown in any of PBWSLVT clips.

In fact, is there ever any punches thrown in PBWSLVT clips??

Compliant chi-sao away my dear!!

[Graham H]

Well they are harder than any of the punches thrown in any of PBWSLVT clips.

In fact, is there ever any punches thrown in PBWSLVT clips??

Compliant chi-sao away my dear!!

But you have never been to PB's club or taken part in any sparring or been hit by him or any of his students so anything else you care to add will be read then disregarded. In fact I liked you more when you were throwing names at me all the time. Can we go back to that?

BTW.................PB has the sort of power I would expect from a good Kung Fu guy......its a shame that nobody I met previously had the same amount of conditioning otherwise maybe I would be complimenting them as well.

G

[GlennR]

But you have never been to PB's club or taken part in any sparring or been hit by him or any of his students so anything else you care to add will be read then disregarded.

As i said to you previously, ive done a fair bit of training with the Barry Lee guys over here so, unless BL has the WSL way tragically wrong, i have a pretty good idea what you guys have to offer.
Good but not ground breaking.
And your logic is flawed in regards to your criticism. You let rip on Phil at will but you havent been to his school..... so youre the only guy in the world that can review a video clip???

In fact I liked you more when you were throwing names at me all the time. Can we go back to that?

Awwwwwwww, did you like me when i called you names??
Knob.......... are we in love again??

BTW.................PB has the sort of power I would expect from a good Kung Fu guy......its a shame that nobody I met previously had the same amount of conditioning otherwise maybe I would be complimenting them as well.

Check out Barry Lee if you do get a chance.... he hits like ten mules from what i hear