Wing Chun and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu

[WingChunABQ]

Hello all! In my efforts to improve as a student of Wing Chun, I've been training with a variety of people both within WC and other martial arts. I've had the opportunity to workshop with people outside of WC in order to see some other perspectives on fighting and training.

I recently encountered several practitioners of both Wing Chun and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu who are of the opinion that Wing Chun's usefulness ends at clinching range and is basically non-existent in ground fighting.

As long as I have practiced Wing Chun, I have understood it to be a 'complete martial art', meaning that its effectiveness is limited only by the creativity and application of the practitioner. Therefore, Wing Chun should have an answer to the "problem" of ground fighting and grappling.

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

[mjw]

I train in BJJ and WC so I can say they both deal with touch and pressure there are similarities in principles but it's like comparing apples to oranges......

[sanjuro_ronin]

When it comes to ground work ( fighting ON the ground), very few ( if any systems) can compare to BJJ.
WC does NOT compare to BJJ in terms of ground fighting NOR SHOULD it.
That WC CAN address the issue depends on HOW it is trained and VS WHAT it is trained ( hint: WC VS WC will NOT prepare you for ground fighting).
And NO, WC as it is does NOT have an answer for the ground fighting that a BJJ fighter brings to the table, if you ( or anyone) doubts that, they can test that view very easily.
The WC fighters best option is to keep the fighting standing as long as possible.

[WC1277]

I'd say WC "can" be used on the ground but by no means is it the top winner compared to others obviously.

I think that's the reason structure is so incredibly important though. I have a friend who I essentially fight with from time to time whom is an excellent ground fighter. I have found that over the years as my structure became more and more solid the harder it was for him to take me down. Elbows down with a good rooted stance will go a long way against a grappler. Applying the same principles will work too....once he has you in a clinch, as long as you still just apply forward pressure to his center, ideally his jawbone area by the ear, you can buy yourself some time. It's one time having control of their elbow doesn't mean having control of them, but test it out, that jawbone area is the clinch range version of the elbow....

[wingchunIan]

I train in BJJ and WC so I can say they both deal with touch and pressure there are similarities in principles but it's like comparing apples to oranges......

Agree entirely. IME Wing Chun can be used very effectively on the ground both from on top and below but the longer you are on the ground the more disadvantaged you are versus an art like BJJ (given the different contexts of the arts this isn't surprising). The primary aim of a Wing Chun practitioner should be to stay standing and if taken down, to get back up asap.

[Dragonzbane76]

WC is a striking art. There is no answer for it on the ground. BJJ/wrestling/grappling in general aim to take down. Why? Because it negates the strike. You totally take away someones leverage for power shots and advantage of escape when you take them down.

I would go on but ronin stated all that really needs to be said about the whole subject.

[anerlich]

As long as I have practiced Wing Chun, I have understood it to be a 'complete martial art', meaning that its effectiveness is limited only by the creativity and application of the practitioner. Therefore, Wing Chun should have an answer to the "problem" of ground fighting and grappling.

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

I disagree with the premise that WC is a "complete martial art" or that it "should have" an answer to groundfighting. It works best in standup fights and in confined spaces.

Is there some good reason any of us have to stay "Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system"? I can't see one.

After a decade of WC, I too was concerned about groundfighting and grappling. That's why I've been training BJJ in the 12 years since.

[anerlich]

.once he has you in a clinch, as long as you still just apply forward pressure to his center, ideally his jawbone area by the ear, you can buy yourself some time.

That's a basic wrestling tactic.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Throughout history fighting with the hands and short weapons was the standard. Going to ground in a fight was not something that anyone endeavered to do. It usually meant death if you were in a battle.
Ground fighting is a relatively new thing. It came into being when fighting became a regulated sport. BJJ is a form of sport grapling. Sport fighting is done under a rule set and you don't have to fear having your brains kicked out. In south or West Dallas the only reason anyone would attempt to take you down is so that while they wrestle with you their friends can kick stuff off of you.
It would be wise to learn some form of fighting that can get you back up off the ground, like Jiujitsu. When learning WC I did learn several escape methods and lots of grappling techniques, but Jiujitsu has the most and the most effective. Forget about submission holds. They are completely worthless. You want techniques that can injure or break stuff on your opponent. Methods to get him off you as quickly as you can.

[Wayfaring]

I'm curious what you think. Within the confines of a traditional Chinese system, what training methods and strategies do you use to deal with grappling/ ground fighting?

Wrestling on the feet, BJJ on the ground.

No clue why someone would be voluntarily confined by traditional Chinese systems.

[Chadderz]

Right, just to be clear, a submission is what you do in a ring. On the street, you do not give any thought to submission, you go straight to the breaking part. It only takes a fraction of a second to extend your hips and break something.


Also, if you're fighting more than one person, how well do you expect to fair standing up? It's pretty bloody difficult!

[Dragonzbane76]

In a refereed fight this would be just fine. But you are likely to get whacked from someone behind you or on a blind side while you are attempting to submit or even hold someone in an arm bar or choke. I speak from experience when I say you need to stay on your feet and you definately need to forget about submission. Even if the guy says he gives up, no sooner than you let him go he is on you again. Evenatully he might choke you out or beat you down. And if he has friends with him you can fully expect it.

No one said to go to the ground Looking for a submission. Come on be realistic for one second in your life. The thing your totally not getting is that SUBMISSION is like one milli. second away from a break or collapsing the wind pipe, etc. I never once stated that you shouldn't stay on your feet in a situation your talking about. But heres the ball buster... what happens if your taken down? Blind sided while your facing another opponent. Well your on the ground and now you have to deal with it. The same friends you were so adamently stating were going to boot your head in are still going to be there. At this juncture you should be worried about positioning. skills of how to get up and finish someone off become important. wrestling, bjj, judo, grappling deal with these issues from that perspective.

Even if the guy says he gives up, no sooner than you let him go he is on you again.

Your still orienting "submissions" with sport. maybe your understanding of the concept is flawed, or that it doesn't take much to exert a tad bit more force from these positions to "finish" the situation.

[Wayfaring]

No one said to go to the ground Looking for a submission. Come on be realistic for one second in your life. The thing your totally not getting is that SUBMISSION is like one milli. second away from a break or collapsing the wind pipe, etc. I never once stated that you shouldn't stay on your feet in a situation your talking about. But heres the ball buster... what happens if your taken down? Blind sided while your facing another opponent. Well your on the ground and now you have to deal with it. The same friends you were so adamently stating were going to boot your head in are still going to be there. At this juncture you should be worried about positioning. skills of how to get up and finish someone off become important. wrestling, bjj, judo, grappling deal with these issues from that perspective.

Yes - even for training submissions I usually don't tap until I am in danger of going unconscious or a limb or joint is extended to the point where if I did not tap it would be damaged. In competitions many times ignorant people don't tap and get injured.

You are spot on in self defense situations. The whole multiple attacker argument multiplies when you are on the ground. Ground skills like a good guard help you to be able to be very mobile on your back, to keep your legs between you and an attacker, and to know how and when to stand up while remaining protected.