Wing Chun Kuen Kuit

[Hendrik]

2nd half:

詠春拳所謂鶴頂蛇纒者：
Wing Chun's so-called Crane top Snake coil:

鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力
蛇纒者為粘貼困梆關節之靈活
The Crane top is the power of absorbing, dissolving, catapulting* limbs
The Snake coil is the agility in sticking and trapping of joints

* [reminds me of the ballistic limb displacement that KGledhill talks about]


易金小練頭第三段訣雲：
Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau 3rd section kuit says:

拱手柝力要均勻
撕手能破長橋法
Saluting hand* splitting power** must be even
Tearing hand can break the long bridge method

拱手者用六弓之勁吸化驚彈發之
撕手者以蛇行之功纒挷困節制之
Saluting hand uses the six bow power to absorb, dissolve, shock, repel, expel
Tearing hand uses snake movement power to wrap, tie, trap, restrain

* Saluting hand = gung sau
** Is there a typo? 柝力 should be 拆力?

You are right. 柝力 should be 拆力 .
拱手 is as 拱手譲人 or the wck double push hands As in woodern dummy.
拱手讓人is 來留去送脫手直冲。the key is 讓。

As it says 直取子午勢，
利我居主位，
勿當衝馬勁,
橫鎖刁牛蹩,
封閉借來法,

譲而取之。

It also said

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
Thus, WCK take the inner door with ease keep the opponent travel the big distance out side the door with the crane withstand.

as in

中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。


撕手 is the 擒拿手

I take WCK as a fine art to investigate the beauty of this art.

[Hendrik]

Meridian is another name for the centre line, but I'll amend anyway.

Not sure what you mean by 'crane withstand'? What does the 'ding' (頂) mean?

EDIT: ah, I think I might see what you mean. That the crane can 'stand up to' or resist the six bow power?

Thanks again.

Yes on center line.
Just want share 詠春子午出自白鶴永春之子午中正。

頂yes stand up or withstand, not resist but capable to hold like a solid spring or bow To shoot. similar to the taiji peng jin. The key of this withstand power is the six bow development.

[Hendrik]

Good work again you pair and thanks for sharing Hendrik

We must thank CTF for his great work.

[CFT]

I don't think I have quite got the crane idea yet.

The snake coil (蛇纒) describes the proactive actions of the snake - the coiling/wrapping results in limiting the opponent's movement.

The 'crane withstands' (鶴頂) doesn't feel like a good English translation, because 'withstands' sounds like a passive action, when really it sounds like it supports the six bow power? How does 'crane supports the six bow power' sound?

[CFT]

頂yes stand up or withstand, not resist but capable to hold like a solid spring or bow To shoot. similar to the taiji peng jin. The key of this withstand power is the six bow development.

Just to supplement what Hendrik has written here.

The original text has: 鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力

吸化 means absorbe and dissolve
弓彈 means to shoot from a bow
肢體 means the limbs

So the translation talks about Crane as the power of absorbing, dissolving, shooting limbs from a bow.

Now are these limbs your own or the opponents?

[Hendrik]

I don't think I have quite got the crane idea yet.

The snake coil (蛇纒) describes the proactive actions of the snake - the coiling/wrapping results in limiting the opponent's movement.

The 'crane withstands' (鶴頂) doesn't feel like a good English translation, because 'withstands' sounds like a passive action, when really it sounds like it supports the six bow power? How does 'crane supports the six bow power' sound?

Yes on crane withstand, we must find a good way to translate it for the western wcners.



鶴頂。is a 彈弓頂勁。頂as頂住。頂勁 is a result of 六弓or 六力。so it is the bow which support or generate this type of 頂勁。

It is active within passive like the spring power or bow. As it says 你不來我不發。

Also please take a look my previous post, I added some more inner and outer gate information.

[Hendrik]

Just to supplement what Hendrik has written here.

The original text has: 鶴頂者為吸化弓彈肢體之勁力

吸化 means absorbe and dissolve
弓彈 means to shoot from a bow
肢體 means the limbs

So the translation talks about Crane as the power of absorbing, dissolving, shooting limbs from a bow.

Now are these limbs your own or the opponents?

Opponents limbs for crane
Opponents joints for snake



This is a excellent sample clip for snake coil, By Gm Fung Chun and Sergio.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...3&postcount=12




This is an excellent sample of crane " withstand" by David and Sergio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQgTu-v6EE



Thanks and appreciate to Gm Fung, David, and Sergio.



Notice all the above follows
老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。

詠春則重中門內外。

Thus, we can see the evolution when the art Evolve into other arts mix.

[LoneTiger108]

I like these translations Chee and think you're spot on with much of it.

But to play a little Devils Advocate, are there actual training 'examples' of each of these lines Hendrik?? What I mean is, do you associate a set of ideas with each line or are they just used to put across the advice itself while teaching the SLT set?

FWIW The terms used and the way most of it is structured (5 characters per line) it is obviously about power development (to me) but it does still look/sound like personal notes maybe. Yours Hendrik or Yik Kams? That's my question...

If they are Yik Kams or your own personal notes, I can appreciate the contibution you are making by sharing them here. I would just like to also see some of the advice in ACTION!!

[k gledhill]

Loi lau hoi sung. Structure supports the elbow on the centerline, doesnt collapse, hips support...
latsao jik chung the arms, like lightning, strike as they are decompressed.

[Hendrik]

I like these translations Chee and think you're spot on with much of it.

But to play a little Devils Advocate, are there actual training 'examples' of each of these lines Hendrik?? What I mean is, do you associate a set of ideas with each line or are they just used to put across the advice itself while teaching the SLT set?

FWIW The terms used and the way most of it is structured (5 characters per line) it is obviously about power development (to me) but it does still look/sound like personal notes maybe. Yours Hendrik or Yik Kams? That's my question...

If they are Yik Kams or your own personal notes, I can appreciate the contibution you are making by sharing them here. I would just like to also see some of the advice in ACTION!!

Look at how I present this subject in this way. Please take a look of all the previous posts.

First, there is a description of the WCK momentum method from my lineage notes.

Then, there is a sample example with the move in the third section of yik kam slt long set with thier kuen kuit explain.


So, for those who train in yik kam slt know exactly which move which kuen kuit which implement the momentum type.


For those who doesn't know that two sample move in the third part of yik kam slt long
set, one can relate to them with the clip in action from sifu David and Gm Fung Chun to have a feel on how there are like.


Thus, from concept of momentum style writing, we can specifically find the implementation in yik kam long set slt third part and different lineages of WCK.


The writing is some yik kam kuen kuit and some my lineage and other lineage notes.

[Hendrik]

Loi lau hoi sung. Structure supports the elbow on the centerline, doesnt collapse, hips support...
latsao jik chung the arms, like lightning, strike as they are decompressed.

Yes that certainly describe the "crane withstand" part as sifu David shows.

The other "snake coil" part is as Gm Fung Chun presented .


the first two part of slt presenting these two core. One can check these across pre 1900 WCK lineages.

If one wants writing record one could look into the 1870 record of snake and crane WCK lineage with Wayne which is the sister lineage of yks lineage to see the present of these core.

So we have a good idea on how WCK core in the 1850. and we have a good idea on how it evolves today.

And when the momentum style or method is lost, WCK evolve further into other arts.

[k gledhill]

When aligned structure meets momentum unbalanced. It is easy to dissolve force that lacks focus.
Let stillness overcome motion.

LSJC drills in chi sao focus on intense energy exchanges through mutual structure 'tests'. Adding arm release as the channel of forces, creates explosive supported striking.
Adding seung ma toi mai..

Creates a formidable fighter.

[CFT]

拱手讓人is 來留去送脫手直冲。the key is 讓。譲而取之。

Thanks Hendrik. I missed the first part about loi lau hoi sung (LLHS), tyut sau jik chung. I just saw the '譲而取之' (concede and then take) and thought it 'hey that sounds a lot like LLHS'.

It also said

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
Thus, WCK take the inner door with ease keep the opponent travel the big distance out side the door with the crane withstand.

as in

中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。


I take WCK as a fine art to investigate the beauty of this art.

The devil is in the details right? It seems there is a lot of commonality in the Wing Chun I have read about, i.e. the ideas are shared, but the problem is whether you have a well defined process to train it.

Translated for the benefit of others:

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
The crane's nature is not to fight. It shows the phoenix's virtue. Overcoming the opponent with cultivation. The difference is in inches.

[Kev G - one inch or death! ]


中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。
Inner gate theory - a person's inner gate is the weakest, it is the goal of the attack, and is the emphasized area of defence. The hand (fist) comes from the heart, the highest is the corwn of the head, the middle is the chest, the lowest is the crotch. Old Hung fist, Lohan fist, Crane fist (including Karate), divides into 4 gates and 8 directions. Wing Chun emphasizes the inner gate within and without (inside and outside).

[k gledhill]

Once you see the intricate lines of interception and how to combat it, you will not waver fom the centerline. 1cm or......

The inner gate is jum jeung. 3 fok sao in slt aka jum jeung.
Outer tan jeung, but easy to let elbow spread out, compared to keeping it in...jum.

Together tan and jum .

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik. I missed the first part about loi lau hoi sung (LLHS), tyut sau jik chung. I just saw the '譲而取之' (concede and then take) and thought it 'hey that sounds a lot like LLHS'.


The devil is in the details right? It seems there is a lot of commonality in the Wing Chun I have read about, i.e. the ideas are shared, but the problem is whether you have a well defined process to train it.

Translated for the benefit of others:

鶴性不爭。以示鳳德。彬彬克敵。分寸之中。
The crane's nature is not to fight. It shows the phoenix's virtue. Overcoming the opponent with cultivation. The difference is in inches.

[Kev G - one inch or death! ]


中門論－人體中門最弱，是攻擊目標，也是重點守護的地方。手由心發，上至頭頂，中為心窝，下達胯襠。老洪拳 、羅漢拳、鶴拳(包括空手道),則分四門八方。詠春則重中門內外。
Inner gate theory - a person's inner gate is the weakest, it is the goal of the attack, and is the emphasized area of defence. The hand (fist) comes from the heart, the highest is the corwn of the head, the middle is the chest, the lowest is the crotch. Old Hung fist, Lohan fist, Crane fist (including Karate), divides into 4 gates and 8 directions. Wing Chun emphasizes the inner gate within and without (inside and outside).

Thanks again.

Agree on the Needs clear process to develop it after we know what are they.

As you can see in David and Fung Chun clips, we can know what they are and know they exist in different lineaged of WCK. May be no one has the complete now but group the lineages together, the majority of the art is still there.

For me, the kuen kuit is responsible for describing the details. The five layers I propose is for a clear details process. Go visit Jim Rosalendo or Come visit me, We can shows you these details of my lineage. How every layer support others layers in details.


Btw, "the different is in inch " because or means wck capture or take and track the inner gate. That makes WCK faster , as David shows in his clip.

Of corse, Provided one has the type of power generation and frame or crane power, it is a well define advantage based on momentum method. WCK is simple and not using those four gate stuffs as other art that is my understanding.